Bell Digest v940818p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 18 Aug 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


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From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: vegetarian
Message-ID: <9408170722.AA05778@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 17 Aug 94 08:22:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5733

John Strauss:
>All this talk about Chalanna Arroy and vegetarianism has got me
>to thinking: You know, I really ought to show my players a
>vegetarian dark troll.....

I hope there aren't any elf players on the team...
-- 
Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[]	|	Single Point of Change, Multiple Points of Reference

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From: jonsg@hyphen.com (Jon Green)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 17 Aug 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <23434.9408171040@diss.hyphen.com>
Date: 17 Aug 94 10:40:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5734

[ Regarding "RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 17 Aug 1994, part 1", RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM writes on Aug 17: ]

Lewis  (X-RQ-ID: 5723):

> 	However, I have decided to introduce the following system as well.  
> Anyone initiated into the worship of a god may perform a limited DI for 
> the effects of one of the god's divine magic spells.  This form of DI is 
> much more likely to work as it is virtualy indistinguishable from the 
> normal casting of divine magic so the god does it on a routine basis.  
> 
> The chance of the effect is POW * 3 for initiates, *4 for acolytes and *5 for 
> rune levels.  The cost is the normal cost in POW for the spell.  However, 
> the spell is cast on a one-use basis (non-reusable spells cost double!).  
> 
Yes, YES, *YES*!  I like, very much.  This addresses a number of
problems, and negates the need for a Rune Power Pool system, despite
Tim Leask's eloquent (but flawed) arguments to the contrary.  (I'll
come back to that.)

One thing: because this is a DI, the God has to intervene directly.
Now, with normal Divine magic, it's a promise called in - the God
doesn't have to take any action.  It's kind-of autonomic, almost a
flinch reaction.  In the case of a Divine spell DI, though, the God's
attention is required.  As a result, the spell is granted only if the
God wills it (this is in addition to the chance, abstracted to a dice
roll, of getting the God's attention in the first place).  Normally,
the spell will be granted.  People will not expend their POW
profligately.  It is even possible that the God will substitute an
entirely different spell, more appropriate to the circumstances, or the
God's will, or intervene in a less predictable fashion.   The POW the
God takes for this service may not be predictable, either.  GM's
discretion...

BTW, Initiate DI can be called upon once every 24 hours.  Do others on
this list feel that a similar limiting factor should be applied to a Divine 
Magic DI as well?

Back to Tim Leask's arguments in favour of a Rune Power Pool system.
I've already outlined a nightmare scenario of a senile Humakti priest
going critical and blessing everyone with Humakt's Death, by many Sever
Spirits dealt from his RPP.  I could proffer many more examples.
(Note: Divine Magic DI, with the caveats I present, would prevent this,
unless it was truly the will of Humakt that the followers die.)
However, I want to make another point concerning how Rune Magic
happens, reemphasising a previous argument.  As usual, everything's IMHO.

Divine Magic is cast by the Gods, not the mortals, who are merely the
means by which the Gods can touch the Mundane plane.  That's why it's
called _Divine_ Magic.  Someone calling for (I won't say "casting") DM
may use a mental frame to form the request - indeed, they must, in
order to make the appeal that quickly - but that's a very different
thing from forming a matrix in their own mind, and casting Gods' POW
through it, essentially using Spirit Magic methods with Gods' power.
This is manipulation of the Gods, a God-Learnerish thing.  It's also an
open invitation to munchkinism.  I've said it before, but access to
an RPP method of casting Divine Magic seems to be to be the sort of thing
one would make a very heavy RQ for - probably with direct (and
combative) contact with a very strong Shadow of one's own God.  Acquiring
this kind of access to a God's power is a significant step on the Hero
Path to Apotheosis.  It also gives PCs something to which to aspire - a
kind of higher DM.

One last smoke, and then fire... :-)

Jon
jonsg@diss.hyphen.com

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From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Vegetarian Dark Trolls
Message-ID: <9408171206.AA27193@Sun.COM>
Date: 17 Aug 94 12:08:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5735


Ref: J. Strauss

	Alot of Dark Trolls are at least partially vegtarians;  Kaargs Sons 
MUST be!  Remember Elves are vegetables so a Dark Troll can get along fine as 
a vegetarian and a CA one will be OK as long as someone else harvests the 
elves, dryads, pixies and runners for him/her.  Now wouldn't that be a nice 
wierd set up for the Uz version of CA.  Sure I'm a vegetarian and I don't 
harm sentient life.  Cuffs trollkin and demands it fetches the scrambled 
elf brains wrapped in runner skins for the guests.  What, you don't believe 
in cuffing trollkin; they are not really sentient (more like a smart dog) 
and anyway they don't feel pain in the same manner as you and me!  Don't 
worry about the elves the harvester assures me that he is very quick and 
they don't feel any pain!  

	-----
	Lewis	(Darkly!)
	-----

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From: igorlick@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: White Sea Drainage; Waertagi Adventure
Message-ID: <_25673_Wed_Aug_17_08:47:03_1994_@bnr.ca>
Date: 17 Aug 94 04:43:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5736

Tim Minas: 
" If all the waters of the world run towards
Magasta's pool, where does the water that ends up in the White Sea go to? (As
it is now unconnected to the central oceans, thanks to Valinds Galcier)"

Related question from me: The Poralistor river runs between the Sweet Sea and 
the White Sea. The Janube runs from the Sweet Sea to the ocean at the Neliomi
Sea. Which way does the Poralistor run? 

I assumed that it runs from the Sweet Sea to the White. The Sweet Sea draining 
into both the White and the ocean would be unstable on Terra, but I assume there 
is some mystic reason on Glorantha why it is so. (Can anyone suggest a good
myth?) On the other hand, maybe the White Sea is drained by the Poralistor 
which flows into the Sweet Sea, which is in turn drained by the Janube. This 
would imply that the White Sea is fresh, not salt. This would answer Tim's 
question, but I don't think that I believe it.
 
------------------------------------------------

Devin Cutler:
"Also ran the Cameo from the same TOTRm re: the Waertagi in Prax. Again,
worked very well.The players enjoyed seeing the pompous Lunar official in
Moonbroth get his!"

Thanks, glad someone enjoyed it. Thanks to the TOTRM editorial staff who 
suggested quite a few improvements to that cameo. 

If anybody else has run this adventure or has run in it, then I would be curious 
to hear a synopsis of your adventure. I would like to know what other minds 
have made of my twisted ideas. Has anybody ever seen the adventurers turn on 
the Waertagi? What happened to the party then? 

---------------------

From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: "What's so funny?" and Rune Sourcery
Message-ID: <9408171312.AA16884@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 17 Aug 94 15:20:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5737

Sandy in X-RQ-ID: 5727
>The other  
>disadvantages of having a Moose tribe, such as making the players  
>crack up, I feel to outweigh the advantages. 

David Dunham in a private mail
>Moose sounds amusing, and is associated with the cartoon character
>Bullwinkle, so to a limited extent, moose are taking the role of ducks in
>Ralios.

I don't really get it. But I suspect it's an american thing.
If you guys had ever seen a real live moose up close, you wouldn't be
laughing so much.:-)
To forestall the obvious replies, I _do_ know about Bullwinkle, it's just
that he doesn't dominate my concept of a moose.

Besides, what's wrong with a few laughs?
________
Next subject:

Peter Metcalfe (did I get it right this time?) in X-RQ-ID: 5720
>It seems that I forgot to mention two gods which destroy your hypothesis.  The
>first is Daka Fal whoese runes are Man, Spirit and Man, and the Horned Man
>whose runes are Spirit, Magic and Spirit.  Both of these people as far as I can
>tell were the first to have their runes.

Well. sorta. The original owner of Man was Grandfather Mortal. OK, so Daka
Fal is supposedly the reincarnated Gramps, but you can say something
similar about most of the others too. I can't really recall anything about
Spirit, but the Horned Man belongs to the shamanistic tradition anyway, not
the theistic, so there's bound to be a muddle there.

>And surely for
>Moon rune, Annilla should be its first holder?

Yes? Have I contradicted this?

Anyway, Sandy comes to my rescue:
>Source Runes" once more. Deities who are an Origin, and have their  
>Rune doubled, are NOT the original source of that Rune. Deities who  
>are an Origin, and have their Rune along with an infinity Rune ARE  
>the original source of that Rune.

So there! :-)

(      Jonas Schiott                                   )
(      Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria      )
(      Goteborgs Universitet                           )


---------------------

From: klaus@diku.dk
Subject: war
Message-ID: <199408171323.AA00777@rimfaxe.diku.dk>
Date: 17 Aug 94 17:23:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5738

david_baur@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (David Baur) writes

>     First, there's the little minor detail called the Compromise limited the
>gods involvement, but exempting that for the moment, if all you had was an
>elevated war of great magical forces battling across the land, both sides
>regaining magic faster than before, you still have the same war, only faster
>and messier for the land around (think of all the collateral damage we can
>create just dumping masses of giant Sylphs or Gnomes across the countryside. 
>This sounds like another wasteland in forming.

A faster war would be less messy. Most damage is done either deliberately,
to starve your opponent, or by looting/foraging. Getting it over with
faster would mean less damage. Battlefields might get more damaged, but
they are an infinitisimal part of the countryside.

Klaus O K

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From: brandon@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 07 Aug 1994, part 3
Message-ID: <9408171454.AA17794@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov>
Date: 17 Aug 94 14:54:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5739


John Strauss writes about his travels in Phil Davis's campaign.

I was lucky enough to play in Phil's game when he came to DC, and heard
the stories about the hummingbird and the itinerant Lankhor Mhy, too.
Phil made her do a divination to talk with you? Hoo hoo!!

Alas, Phil moved on to California, much to the heartbreak of our group.
I particularly lamented his departure, as I was just getting started on a 
particularly insane and dangerous set of heroquests...

Brandon

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From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: rampant godlearnerism
Message-ID: <01HG0I96OCIERLX1UE@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 17 Aug 94 05:41:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5740

   Now that we have achieved the switch of Peter Whitelaw for Peter 
   Metcalfe, we should anticipate the imminent demise ofsome aspect of the 
   Daily.  Perhaps the Rune Power pool will suddenly dry up?  :-)  (At 
   least I hope I don't suddenly find myself becoming the Blue Wizard 
   instead!) 
   
   Speaking of runes, the Blue Wizard (aka Metcalfe or PHM) mentions Daka 
   Fal as the first with the Man rune.  I think the first was actually 
   Grandfather Mortal/Old Man/etc, not Daka Fal.  Daka Fal seems to be a 
   resurrected aspect of one or all of these who regained the rune.  You 
   may have a point with the Horned Man--I certainly haven't seen anything 
   on a primal spirit.  I think the original holder of the Cold rune would 
   be the same as the original holder of the Dark rune since the former is 
   just a piece of the latter.  In regards to the Moon rune, there is a 
   figure in GRAY called the Mother of Moons.  This does not appear to be 
   the same as Annilla.  Perhaps she or another is the true source of the 
   Moon rune.
   
   --Harald (not PHM)
     



---------------------

From: T.J.Minas@soton.ac.uk (T.J.Minas)
Subject: Truestone, matrices,rune Power (again!)
Message-ID: <199408171607.RAA09779@mail.soton.ac.uk>
Date: 17 Aug 94 16:07:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5741

Back Again.

   On Truestones: Yeuk! I don't like the proposal that they hold Rune Power
points at all! After all, surely half the tremendous power of Truestone is the
fact that they hold spells which are otherwise unavailable to you, if you
defeat an enemy who had a piece. If all it holds is RPP, then it's pretty
useless to you. (No more stealing Trollish Truestone with Blinding etc in for
a special quest etc)

   On matrices: why do we assume that a village Priest/ess of Ernalda is going
to be good at Enchanting? I wouldn't bet on it myself. Ceremony, sure! But try
using Ceremony to boost your chances of Ritual magic, and it won't be a simple
1 day job for the Enchantment!
   Incidentally, on the Bless crops theory, in Sun County, the farmers fields
are marked out by special marker stones, and the spell won't work without them.
May I propose that a Bless Crops spell would cover the whole field area inside
the boundaries of one property so marked by these stones? This would make the
spell a rather more useful one. (If you feel this is too powerful, then you
might put a maximum limit on "field size" and require each field to be
seperatly marked by these stones)

   On Communal Rune magic and temple spirits etc: OK, so what happens to the
famous Broo Healer of the Rockwoods? I'm sure he knows Resurrection. I'm also
sure he doesn't have a real big temple etc! So, how would he go about getting
the spell cast if it requires a temple spirit? I think temple Spirits
definitely exist, but I don't think that they have anything to do with temple
communal magic.The Healers are after all, obligated to heal anyone who asks for
it (barring the obvious exceptions), so they tend to be very spread out and
have few Human (or Aldyami, duck, whatever) worshippers in any one place, and
have real problems making big enough temples to regain their spells. The only
thing that saves them a bit of hassle is the fact that may Healing spirits join
in the worship services, boosting the effective numbers of Initiates, and that
Healers tend to congregate on their temples at Holy Days for 2 reasons: a) to
boost the number of initiates there worshipping; and b) to pray for their own
Rune spells back again at a decent size temple. After all, I guess that the
Healers at Horn Gate in the Eiritha Hills don't have a temple worth diddly-
squat, so they go to Pavis every Season to worship.
   
   A long paragraph there. Whew!

   I guess I'll agree to disagree about some of the Runepower ideas. It just
doesn't ring true with me, really. That is what part of the fun about choosing
your Rune Magic is, deciding what you want first. I recall that my Humakti
Priest (a long time ago, this, RQ2 still ruled the Plains) chose SpellTeaching
as his first runespell, much to the GM's surprise! Runepower makes it too easy
to change from being a sedentary old priest who sits around at home teaching
youngsters spells etc to a mighty warrior with powerful defensive and offensive
spells. Sorry, doesn't fit my image. That's _MY_ personal view, so I claim no
God-given inspiration here.

   Enough for now.
                       Bye all

                                                               Tim

---------------------

From: watson@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: more communal wyttering
Message-ID: <199408171623.RAA09616@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 17 Aug 94 18:23:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5742

__________
David Baur:
>     I like the idea of the "communal temple spirit" (A sort of brainless
> temple allied spirit).   It does seem to fit better into the flavor of RQ
> then the generic power Vs. number of worshippers idea.

Also, I think it provides a mechanism for more powerful magic in general.
It seems naively adventurocentric of us to suppose that the be-all-and-end-all
of Gloranthan magic can rest in the hands of individuals. I believe
the most powerful magics are accessed through cooperative ritual (although
I don't really need rules for it 'cos it won't be in the forefront of many
of my games: just understand that it's *out there*).

>     An immediate question I have (others probably to follow in later
> postings), would be, how many worshippers does it take banding together
> for the spirit to use it's spells?

I was thinking that it depends on the magnitude of the spell eg. 1 worshipper
per point of spell: so an individual priest could get the wyter to cast a
lowly Heal Wound spell; 3 worshippers would be required for Heal Body; and,
say the community-wide-Bless-Crops-like-spell is 150pts, it would take 150
worshippers (I just pulled the 150pt figure off the top off my head, don't
worry too much about it).

These are minimum figures: there should usually be a slacker-factor - it might
take 100 Orlanthi to get a 50pt spell 'cos half of 'em are hopeless wasters. ;-)

Likewise, it would take a large number of worshippers to get the wyter to
"sacrifice" for a large spell in the first place.

Access to a wyter is probably initiated via a Worship (deity) spell hence the
wyter-rituals need to be led by a priest (you can't just have any old initiate
wander in off the street to cast the wyter's spells on his own).

And I imagine that the Power of the wyter varies from year-to-year depending
on how many worshippers turn up at the HHD. Maybe the congregation gets to
completely change the wyter's "choice of spells" on a year-to-year basis also?

___
CW.

---------------------

From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 17 Aug 1994
Message-ID: <9408171652.AA23116@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 17 Aug 94 04:52:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5743

Bob Luckin:
>I don't recall ever seeing/hearing the reason that Genert could be
>reconstructed from hyena skins.
	In NOMAD GODS, it is explained that Hyena (the spirit entity)  
was called upon by Genert to eat his corpse so it wouldn't fall into  
the hands of Chaos. 

	In CULTS OF PRAX, members of a certain Issaries subcult are  
required to take pieces of Genert to him in order to repair him. 


	Basically, any hyena, by virtue of its descent, has a tiny  
little piece of dead Genert in him. Some hyenas or pieces of hyenas  
have more than others. The example used in CoP was a rune-carved bit  
of hyena skin, but hyena entrails, tails, etc. are also usable. The  
cult requirement to deliver bits of Genert to him is variable in its  
urgency depending on how magic the bit of Genert encountered is. Most  
priests wouldn't become a Desert Tracker just because they saw a  
hyena (but some might). 


>From what you say, Genert deliberately asked Hyena to eat him when  
>he died so he couldn't be resurrected.  

	Not so he couldn't be resurrected, but so he wouldn't be  
eaten/tainted/reanimated by Chaos. 


>What *was* his original reasoning ?
	Genert posited that letting his corpse fall into the hands of  
Chaos would be a bad thing. He enjoined Hyena with the task of eating  
him as soon after his death as possible. Hyena did so, and so  
Genert's body was not escheat to Chaos. It is unknown what the  
results would have been if Chaos had eaten him. Certainly he appears  
to be destroyed in the same degree that Splendid Yamsur is destroyed  
-- i.e., by Chaos, so non-resurrectable. 


My statement, to wit: "don't forget WHY Genert had Hyena eat him.
>I see no reason to suppose that his original reasoning isn't still
>valid, in which case the resurrection of Genert could lead to
>Genert's death and the takeover of a chaotic land-god."
	Is based on the suggestion that the entities that Genert  
feared are still around waiting for him. 




---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Mixed replies
Message-ID: 
Date: 17 Aug 94 18:29:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5744

_______________________________
Peter Metcalfe in X-RQ-ID: 5720

> It seems that I forgot to mention two gods which destroy your hypothesis.  The
> first is Daka Fal whoese runes are Man, Spirit and Man, and the Horned Man
> whose runes are Spirit, Magic and Spirit.  Both of these people as far as I can
> tell were the first to have their runes.

Daka Fal is NOT Grandpa Mortal. He has changed.

Horny Man might be a slip. However, the Great Spirit surely would have 
been Glorantha herself?

> Furthermore in Troll Gods, Himile is
> doubled Cold rune whereas he was the first to hold those runes.  And surely for
> Moon rune, Annilla should be its first holder?

Cold, Warmth, Light, Shadow are secondary runes. And Annilla was only 
the second Lunar deity in the sky, there was a daughter of Yelm before, 
according to Emperor Yelmgatha's star-seers.

BTW: anyone out there want to discuss The Dara Happan Book of Emperors 
(DHBE)? I'm just collecting notes.

______________________
Lewis in X-RQ-ID: 5723

> 	Maybe I have an idea that can go some way to bringing together the 
> Rune Power and the Reusable divine magic for initiates camps.   

Looks great! Is it playtested? If not, who will?

_______________________________
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 5727

> 	I've always assumed that the priests must pace themselves,   
> using their magic only gradually. Perhaps Dragon Pass should have a  
> "realism" rule letting ALL magicians have a special magic effect, if  
> their spirit is used up afterwards. 

Not really. Maybe each individual magician in the units has, but the 
unit as a collected entity (the wyter?) has not.

> Tim Minas
>>Someone asked at Convulsion what would happen if you killed all the  
>>Hyenas in the wastes, would Genert come back? Greg said, yes,  
>>probably.
> 	On the other hand, don't forget WHY Genert had Hyena eat him.  
> I see no reason to suppose that his original reasoning isn't still  
> valid, in which case the resurrection of Genert could lead to  
> Genert's death and the takeover of a chaotic land-god.

Possibly true. Yet, someone is sure to try, and that's what all 
these cataclysms are for. Would be fun.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de