Bell Digest v940820p2

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 20 Aug 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Arcos and DHBE
Date: 19 Aug 94 12:56:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5781

Harald Smith in X-RQ-ID: 5760

> - Joerg asks about interest in the Dara Happan emperors.

> I'm interested in such, either here or privately.  Are you talking pre-
> Khordavu, post-Khordavu, or both?

Both, of course. The Dara Happan Book of Emperors (DHBE) has several hints 
which escaped me at first reading, even though some are obvious. I 
have the nagging doubt that there are more things I overlooked, so I'll 
just ask questions about it on the Daily (unless the people without a 
copy protest loud - although they'll miss the circumstantial evidence 
sure to drop off).

> While we're talking about rivers and Dara Happa, has anyone done 
> anything with the other great Pelorian river, the Arcos?  I realized 
> recently that there is a basic similarity of names in this region which 
> suggests a some strength inherent in this area.

>  Z arkos     the Plentonius name for the area.
>    Arcos     the great river from the Elf Sea.
> Dzhar  st    typically read as Jarst, the northern realm.
> Dzhar  sting typically read as Garsting, the southern realm, though
>              I give it a soft instead of hard sounding here.

The DHBE adds the regional names of Ezarcos for the lands east of the 
Arcos and Ozarcos for a realm to its west, covering the eastern parts 
of Jarst and Garsting. Ozarcos appears only in the time between 200 and 
300, and is one target of the elf expansion of that time.

Around 900 to 950, there appear to be several larger empires in Peloria: 
The EWF in the south, conquering the lands along the Oslir River (Dara 
Happa, disappearing from 878 to 910 when the Sun Dragon was "Emperor", 
the Carmanian Empire to the west, a short-lived Korer Empire aroun the 
Oslir Mouth, the Horse Riders in the Arcos Valley and east of it, with an 
agricultural "slave" populace along the river (not unlike the 1st Age rule 
over Dara Happa) called Vethil, and (interesting for this discussion) 
an encircled area covering Rinliddi, Jarst, Garsting, the Hungry Plateau 
and Jord Mts. The latter seems to have had some sort of unity.

I am not certain that Greg already has very developed ideas for this 
area - most of his recent work covered Pelanda, better known to 3rd Age 
Gloranthans as Carmania or west Peloria. Rinliddi at least has enjoyed 
a certain focus of his attention 2.5 centuries later, and Deezola's realm 
has a number of features unknown in the rest of Peloria. This makes me 
wonder whether there was a language "Old Rinliddic" which has similarities 
to Jarstic and other Arcos region languages. In the History of the 5th Wane 
we are told that Palbar (in Oraya) was built upon the ruins of an older, 
"unknown" city, and that its ancient spirits effectively kept those of (the 
born Praxian, according to DHBE) Sheng Seleris, who never had problems 
beating even chaos-allied Lunar spirits except Yara Aranis.

Jarst and Garsting are shown free of horse nomad domination for most of 
the centuries before. This might be due to the terrain they have (my 
guess would be a karst landscape, chalky ground with lots of caves and 
difficult terrain, not unlike former Jugoslavia), but implies a somwhat 
stable gouvernment, or at least army. However, both countries had little 
or no direct access to the Arcos River, which was firmly controlled by 
the Horse Nomads.

> (and of course there is also BalaZar)

He was an invader from Vanch or so, so my bets are off.

> I might surmise that the original name could be Zarkost.  Perhaps a Dara 
> Happan invasion transformed the name into Dara Zharkost and that 
> degenerated into D'zhar'st or Jarst.

The only connections to one of the better known lands of Peloria I could 
find in the maps are the above mentioned with Rinliddi, and a later one 
with Vanch and Imther at the time of the Dragonkill War. See Tales 6 (the 
Broken Earth, by Steve Gilham) and Greg's reply in the letters of Tales 
7 or 8.

However, I have the feeling that Darjeeb, a city on the Arcos, could 
stand on the ruins of Zayteneras' city of the Decapolis, Senthoros.

--  Joerg Baumgartner


Subject: Gloranthan Economics 101
Message-ID: <>
Date: 19 Aug 94 13:56:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5782

Hi All!

I've been overwhelmed, flattered, and somewhat intimidated by the response I've
gotten to my posting concerning my trade notes.  At Henk's suggestion, I will
be distributing this material via the Digest.  The final draft will probably
include the following:

An essay on trade, including specific discussions of certain commodities

An essay on local and long distance markets

Essays on production and distribution for the four major cultural types

Notes on the major trading cults

An alternative set of currencies, fully compatible with the existing ones

Trade notes for each major region discussed in the Genertela book, focusing
on major imports and exports, internal trade and market structures, and major
points of contact with other regions

I will definitely mail this material to Henk by Sunday latest (the semester
starts Monday, and I have a dissertation to write!).  I hope that the end
product will meet with your approval.

Gerald Bosch
University of Iowa
Department of History


From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: lozenge
Date: 19 Aug 94 09:37:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5784

   - Dave Pearton asks about the lozenge
   Based on the pictures in Codex 2, I would say that the lozenge is 
   enclosed in the Cosmic Eggshell.  Of course, it's cracked now because 
   chaos entered, but the egg itself should float in the void of chaos.


Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 19 Aug 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <>
Date: 19 Aug 94 20:13:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5785

Devin Cutler here:

Klaus writes:

"PS. A few days ago I said that priests will only fail their enchantment
rolls 5% of the time because they have access to "invigorate"
spells. The spell is really called endurance. Sorry about that."

I have rules for my campaign that the Endurance spell only affects short term
fatigue loss, like in combat, and not long-term fatigue loss such as that
lost from marching all day or doing long rituals. Otherwise, Endurance is way
too powerful and, yes, given enough time all people have a 95% enchantment
assuming the sum of their Ench and Cer skills equals 95%.


Devin Cutler


Subject: Flood Myth
Message-ID: <>
Date: 19 Aug 94 20:47:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5786

Devin Cutler here:

Without wanting to insult those who thought the Anaxial the Sailor myth
(GRoY) was brilliant stuff, does anyone else find this blatant ripoff of
Terran flood myths to be a bit cheesy?

Why, other than the fact that it is a mythic archetype on Earth, does
Glorantha need such a derivative myth? I certainly agree that a 'cleansing"
myth has a place in any culture or world, but why did Greg need to be so
obviosuly Noahesque with it all? I might have preferred something a bit more
Sun-like (like perhaps volcanoes and a pall of ash from Lodril.

In any case, why would the Sky Gods choose rain as a way of cleansing. Isn't
rain a vehicle of the rebel gods?

Just pontificating,

Devin Cutler


From: (Andrew Raphael)
Subject: cartoon Glorantha
Message-ID: <>
Date: 20 Aug 94 15:48:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5787

Bob Luckin  writes:

>This led me to speculate on what other cartoon analogues you could introduce
>into Gloranthan culture.

>*   Is the Red Emperor really like Yosemite Sam ?

No, Sam is far too hairy to be the Red Emperor.  The princess in
MOB's Lunar Coders, from Strangers in Prax, suggest that the Red
Emperor is hairless.  He is, therefore, Elmer Fudd.

An Australian-made cartoon series, King Arthur and His Square Knights of
the Round Table, may serve for the West.  MOB may remember this from his

I've often wondered if strolling players in Kralorela present morality plays
based on the life of the belt-buckle salesman who became Godunya, the Dragon
Emperor.  Surely he was married, with children?


From: (Andrew Raphael)
Subject: Agriculture
Message-ID: <>
Date: 20 Aug 94 16:30:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5788

>Let's quantify this. Quoting in full from RuneQuest Cities (and who am I 
>to doubt their facts):-
>'Based on medieval and Renaissance yields, it takes 12,000-20,000 
>square maters of farmed land to feed one person. Usually one-third of the 
>farming land was left fallow each season, so five square kilometers of 
>farm land supported 80-130 people.'

The article "Agriculture for Developing Nations" (Francesca Bray, Scientific
American, July 1994, pp18), describes why this is so.

*   Northern Europe has a short growing season
*   The staple cereals bear few grains (dozens compared to hundreds on millet &
*   Farmers kept a third of the crop for next year's seed
*   Another large portion fed draft animals during winter
*   The only fertilizer was manure, so land was left fallow, & planted with
    cereal every third year

    "This farming system used land _extensively_ and
    could not support high population densities.  The
    typical 11th century English holding, as recorded
    in the Domesday Book, was 30 acres (12 hectares)."

Ms Bray contrasts this with the maize/bean/squash intensive polyculture of
Central America, and the wet rice intensive polyculture of Asia.

What does this mean for Genertela?  I'd say that those areas most like
early northern Europe are the ones who need Bless Crops the most.  The
Orlanthi cultures.  The maize (Peloria?) & rice (Kralorela) areas are
doing OK.  I suspect the West has been through the enclosure of open
fields the get the economies of scale needed to feed their cities.


From: (Peter J. Whitelaw)
Subject: Rune help
Message-ID: <940819225251_100102.3001_BHJ29-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 19 Aug 94 22:52:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5790

Hi all,

Can anyone tell me what the runes for Gogorma (GoG) are called?  The
connotations are apparent enough, I just wondered if they had an official name.

Similarly, I assume that for Godunya is the 'Dragon' Rune ?

Many thanks.

All the best,



Subject: Regaining Rune Magic
Message-ID: <>
Date: 20 Aug 94 00:38:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5791

Greetings All...
I've been watching the rune magic discussion from the sidelines,
and I've finally decided to leap heroically into the fray and
express my oh so humble opinions...

In my campaign, I prefer that rune magic be fairly hard to come by.
Priests rarely allow initiates to sacrifice for one use spells,
new candidates for priest and acolyte have to survive the sometimes
vicious political infighting before advancing in the cult hierarchy,
etc etc... However, once the players get the rune magic, I prefer for
them to be able to regain it. So, I've devised the following system.

Initiates can regain spell points by spending an entire day conducting
the appropriate rituals in an appropriately sanctified area and
rolling a critical on their ceremony skill.
If the initiate is doing the rituals as part of a holy day ceremony,
he only needs to roll a special success to regain a point of magic.
If the ritual is part of a high holy day, then the initiate just needs
to roll a normal success on his ceremony.

Acolytes, regain spells on non-holy days with a special success, on
holy days with a normal success, and automatically on high holy days.

Priests and Lords regain spells on non-holy days with a successful
ceremony roll, and regain them automatically on holy days and high
holy days.

Spells that are normally one-use for priests and lords are not
regainable by initiates, and the priest/lord must roll as an
initiate to regain them.

I also do not require that spells be regained only in the larger
temples. Any area sanctified to your deity will do. However, in order
to sacrifice for new spells, you have to find the appropriate sized

At the moment, I'm not using Rune Power in any of its various forms.
However, I'm seriously thinking about it. Currently, none of my
players is rune level, so I don't really have to worry too much
about Rune Power since I'd restrict it to Priests and Lords.

I think that this model allows the magical ecology to support
lots of people casting Bless Crops and other community supporting
spells without letting the players to get too out of hand.

Comments are welcome...

-Matt Thale


From: (David Dunham)
Subject: Moose, Coyote, Moon
Message-ID: <>
Date: 20 Aug 94 05:58:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5792

Sandy said
>I don't mind having the Moose Hsunchen in a game. I just  
>don't want them to be the Pralori, which are a large and common  

I completely agree -- in my campaign, the Moose Hsunchen call themselves
the Aleci, and are far less common than the Pralori.

It was pointed out to me that my use of a coyote in my first Ralios session
(the adulthood mini-heroquest) wasn't appropriate for Glorantha. I'd wanted
something that was identifiable as Trickster without too much difficulty.
We know there are Gloranthan dogs, wolves, and hyenas. Are there coyotes?
Raccoons are another American mammal that's in Glorantha.

(Bob Luckin irreverently answers this
>And just think how much fun you could have when your PC's meet a group of
>Wile E. Coyote hsunchen !
but that's not quite what I'm asking...)

Alex asks

>David D., how do you do DI in Pendragon Pass?

Given that I was trying to make the magic system as compatible as possible
(the idea being you could look at Gods of Glorantha and get a good idea
about things, despite using Pendragon), I figured it would be the same as
RQ. A d100 roll is a bit out of place in Pendragon, however. Perhaps there
should be a rule that you make a POW roll and religious virtue rolls, and
depending on how many you make, you have more POW left over afterwards.

Apparently there's some dispute as to whether the Red Moon is visible from
Pavis. I never thought this was in doubt, but I got a letter from someone
who claims it can't be seen from Pavis.


Subject: RunePower comments
Message-ID: <>
Date: 21 Aug 94 01:58:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5793

                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                      Date:  Sent on: 20-Aug-1994 03:58pm
                                      From:  Alistair Langsford
                                             LANGSFORD ALISTAIR
                                      Dept:  Information Services
                                      Tel No:289 7870

TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( )

Subject: RunePower comments

    On RunePower...
    I don't have the original rules, or recent posts available to me, so 
    forgive me for not being able to quote people. 
    I like the RunePower Game Mechanics, plus many of the suggested 
    modifications, for much the same reasons as the other fans have already 
    The concerns that the RunePower system is open to abuse and may promote 
    munchinism are also quite valid, but I see them as being better solved 
    by Game World Rules, ie Gloranthan world background stuff, not by 
    disallowing the RunePower Game Mechanics. After all, what stops players 
    from 'abusing' the combat rules and killing everything in sight? In my 
    experience, what best stops -this- abuse is the response of people and 
    powers within the Game World.
    Why is a Humakti casting repeated Sever Spirits, or someone else taking 
    Great Parry, a problem? Surely if the situation warrants it, this is an 
    appropriate action, and so it should be OK with the relevant Deity and 
    the cult. And what if it is not OK? Then the PC should get some 
    feedback, as they would get for doing any other action that the 
    relevant Deity and/or cult found inappropriate. Perhaps they find the 
    get strange dreams in which their Deity's displeasure is communicated. 
    Or perhaps they find that their lack of RunePower, after having used it 
    all up on Sever Spirits or Great Parry, does not allow them to fulfill 
    other important responsibilities - which could result in some 
    punishment, loss of status, etc. Or simply the inability to save 
    another PC's life.
    I think the RunePower system can allow characters to roleplay better, 
    because they have to balance not just what is appropriate to the moment 
    when they want to cast the spell, but the long term ramifications. With 
    the flexibility comes extra responsibility. The problem is not so much 
    that the rules can be abused, is that the PCs may not be held 
    -accountable- for their actions.
    On the Game Mechanics side, I like the modification that before a 
    Divine spell could be cast from the RunePower Pool you had to have 
    'learned' it anyway, by sacrificing for it as you do now. Perhaps the 
    ability to create the RunePower Pool in the first place is a Divine 
    Spell in the first place. So, if you have not learned the 'RunePower' 
    spell, you cannot create the Pool. And so who gets taught the spell is 
    controlled by the cult. And if it is abused once known? Well, maybe 
    that spell suddenly does not work, as a sign of the Deity's 
    displeasure. After all, aren't they the source of the Divine spell the 
    character sacrifices POW for?
    Other people were discussing ways of differentiating between different 
    levels of the cult hierarchy. Perhaps access to being able to use a 
    RunePower Pool is a good extra level, as a step above access to 
    reusable Divine Magic. It also provides a Game World control over abuse 
    of the RunePower system, rather than a Game Mechanics one.