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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 20 Aug 1994, part 3
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Gloranthan Cosmology
Message-ID:
Date: 19 Aug 94 12:23:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5779
Dave Pearton asks in X-RQ-ID: 5754:
What does the lozenge rest on?
First of all, a lot of this is answered in Codex 2, the Map of the
God Plane.
Glorantha came into being about like this:
First, Darkness separated itself from the void, and formed a border.
When the Sea of Darkness and Styx formed Zaramaka, this border bent
to hold the newly created Sea. Eventually it became the shell of a
hemisphere.
From recent readings and the Lore Auction at Convulsion I believe
that the upper (outer, at that time) part of the Sea phyiscally bordered
to the Void, but that it was more difficult to cross that border than to
enter through Darkness.
Within Sea grew the perfect cube of Earth, which seems to have followed
the Spike when it pierced the Sea, or so the merman myth tells us. It is
possible that the Spike existed already in Darkness, and that Styx flowed
up its slopes to form Sea. (Water flowed up in Glorantha until Heler made
rain fall upon the Earth and later Magasta called all the rivers to his
aid. I recall a rumour that part of the Syphon River in Heortland still
flows upward to escape Larnste's Footprint; my party just visited the
Syphon Climbs on a pilgrimage. They weren't as impressed as I thought
they'd be.) Sea would have engulfed all but the basement of the Spike,
where Nakala and/or Subere ruled. When Earth pushed up through the Sea,
cosmology gets a bit fuzzy - while the Universe may have been a roughly
spherical bubble in the Void before, with Earth piercing the Sea surface
and surrounding the middle part of the Spike, we get a problem at the
top. Unless the tip of the Spike still was about level with the upper
surface of Earth.
The earliest myths tell of life upon the Earth already in this time. I
suppose that above the earth there was a swirling, ever-moving screen of
unformed matter or void, while Grower spawned the plants and Maker the
tools, aka Mostali. The Man Rune seems to come into existence already
at this time, since the Aldryami have memories of that Age. The most
remarkable event of this time was when the Dragons arrived on the Earth
and fought the Giants mothered by Annilla and fathered by He Who Moves.
These struggles will have resulted in several of the first mountains,
like the Rockwoods, and possibly the Nidan Mountains.
Then Sky formed out of the Void above the cube of Earth protruding from
Sea, and formed a perfect hemisphere matching that of Darkness. The Spike
grew out of Earth until it reached the Zenith of the Middle Sky. The
Universe was a perfect sphere, the Glowing Sky of Light (yellow, BTW)
shielded the Void from view of everybody but the denizens of the Upper
Heavens, Dayzatar's realm. The Cube of Earth sat at the perfect centre
of this sphere, a wonder of symmetry.
However, where Sky touched Earth, a new element formed, and Umath, Primal
Air, was born. The birth of one element within another wasn't unpreceded -
Earth had formed within Sea, and risen up. However, Yelm, ruler of the sky
and realms attachant, denied Air its place as an element, trying to
relegate it as a minor force. Umath protested, and going to the top of
the Spike, pushed apart Earth and Sky and filled the room created in
between.
This had several consequences:
Earth was pushed downwards, into the sea, until its surface was almost
level with that of the Sea. Togaro took the opportunity and invaded Earth,
and spread Terror. When the Storm Gods came to the defense of the Earth,
the Gods War broke out. (While Yelm still "ruled", BTW.) Earth also was
distorted from perfect cubic shape into a retangular lozenge, slightly
bulging downward in its centre around the slopes of the Spike. Raging Sea
ran into this valley and drowned much of Esrola, and Nestentos went on
through Dragon Pass into Dara Happa where it drove Yelm from the surface
before being tamed by Lodril's children (at the command of Murharzarm,
Plentonius says).
When Earth was pushed into the Sea, Sea in turn pushed downwards into
Darkness, and caused the Godswar Oceanic Bulge. Darkness (Hell) was
distorted, but largely kept its shape (as it had before when Sea formed).
The Sky fared worst at this maneuvre: It lost contact with the Spike.
The Lower Heaven, which had bordered upon the upper slopes of the Spike
before, was separated from them by the Sky Storm which filled the space
previously occupied by the Mountain. The Crystal sky bowl was distorted
into a hemisphere, the Sky Realm was caused to bulge upwards.
In the Rim Zone, all elements (save Earth?) met.
One notable event afterwards once again involved Annilla. After her
race of giants had been conquered by the dragons and her husband had
been slain, she had devoured the remains of her husband and given
birth to a soulless body which she possessed. Riding this body, a
sphere shedding a blue glow, she ascended from deepest Darkness along
the Seas to the Rim Zone. On her way up she met Lorian and other water
deities, and she made the son of her union with Lorian the ruler of
the South: the Artmali Empire. Leading Lorian and the hosts of water,
Annilla rose outside the yellow Sky Bowl and invaded the top of the
universe, her rightful place of old until the dragons had exiled her.
When the Sky River reached the top of the Universe, Dayzatar yielded
her his place, strolling off to look for Lightfore, his champion. Thus
the formerly yellow sky bowl turned blue, while the numerous lesser suns
shed light from the Crystal Sky Bowl.
When Ragnaglar, who had left Hell (into which Storm Bull had sent him)
into the Void, returned with his Void-begotten son by Thed, he and his
host entered the world from the northern edge of the rim, closest to
his original lands. Entering here, he pushed the sky bowl upward at
that end, and as a consequence it was pushed downward at the south end,
and fiery sky essence spilt upon the southern end of the surface while
Ice entered the North from the Darkness, plugging the hole Ragnaglar
had left.
When Wakboth's host had conquered the Spike, they made it implode
(made it crumble and scatter across the Void?), and the Void leapt up
into the space previously filled by the Mountain. In reaction, Magasta
jumped against the incoming tide of the forces of the Void, and while
coming too late to stop Kajabor (and the other horrors mentioned in
Cults of Terror) he managed to keep the rest of the hungry spirits of
the Void outside. Magasta called the other forces of Sea to his aid, and
the Rivers returned their courses, and from high above Anilla dived
down into his pool, followed by a rush of rain and storm which kept
the upper half of the universe free of Chaos. Deep below, Darkness
and the Sea of Darkness swallowed whatever Void had entered, and the
Inner Depths were filled with the water from the Surface rushing down
Magasta's Pool. Thus the Chaos Wars were centered upon the Surface region
of the Universe.
Earth had been cracked into three major pieces by the implosion of
the Spike: Genertela and the Northern realms, Vithela and the Eastern
realms, and Pamaltela and the southwestern realms. The waters between
these are called Oceans, because they have a direct connection, bypassing
Earth, into the Inner Depths.
(I wonder what the slopes of the inner Earth at their contact with the
Sea look like; theoretically a whole world of its own could exist here,
with beings of Sea and Earth, unlike the mermen of the Surface who
were born of Storm and Sea. Likewise the contact zone between the Lower
Earth and the Inner Depths and the outer edge between Earth and the
Outer Oceans could be interesting. Imagine volcanoes erupting downwards,
bubbles of ice, air or even fire enclosed in the lower surface of
Earth like lakes on the upper side.)
Throughout the Chaos Wars, Chaos fed parts of the Surface World to the
Void, to the effec that when Arachne Solara cast out her Web before the
Dawning, chunks of the Surface were missing or strongly distorted. The
Compromise restored these somehow, without discernible seams, except the
Fading Lands (Castle Blue, the Hidden Greens, et al).
The only major cosmological changes after the Dawn were the Sunstop, when
the Void leaked in through the Sky, and the Rise (and prophecied fall) of
the Red Moon. Throughout the First Age until the Sun Stop the sky kept
changing, but ever since most stars kept to their positions and most
planets and special bodies kept to their courses. Some new stars were
created at the apotheosis of prominent mortals, others were crushed by
phenomenons like the Jugger or the Eater, or taken out of existence
by mighty heroquests (Sheng Seleris, for example).
> But what are the upper and lower bounds of this? Is there a roof to the
> upper heavens and a lower bound to the hells? There would have to be if
> chaos enters "from outside".
IMO the Upper heaven allows a plain view into the unformed substance of
the Void. Only Dayzatar and his minions face this (I wonder how
chaos-tainted this makes them, although another Gloranthan term for this
is "mystic"). The outer Hell is in fact a border region where Darkness
gradually becomes Chaos, and the deities and heroes of Darkness fight
their encounters with invaders from the Void here. Invaders to the Upper
Heaven are not so much fought but reasoned away.
I find it interesting though that the holder of Truth is directly exposed
to the Void. Truth may be his weapon, but what does this use do to Truth?
> So what does the Gloranthan cosmos rest on
> (has visions of giant turtles, etc...) or does it simply float in a formless
> void of chaos?
IMO it floats within the everchanging turmoil of the Void. There are other
pieces of the Spike floating there, IMO, maybe the crystallisation cells
of other, new universes, but if this is the case, only the dragons might
know, since they roam the Void.
> If so, just how is the cosmos bounded? If chaos entered in
> the North by lifting up the sky dome then it would imply that the sky dome
> is the outer bound
The Sky Dome has several layers. The Sky Realm forms the middle layer
and is shielded by the Upper Heaven.
> but the upper heavens where the star captains are and
> Dayzataxr has retreated to appears to be above the sky dome so that can't be
> the case.
The Star Captains are denizens of the Sky Realm, like the Shanasse
(Luxites) and the dead of Solar cults at the end of their cycles of
reincarnation.
> Also if all the waters rushed to fill the gaping hole in the cosmos
> created by the destruction of the spike where is the water going - (out of
> the cosmos?) and if so is will the water ever going to run out completely?
IMO it is running into the Inner Depths, and cycling up in the outer
Oceans. The Void seems to be effectively closed out of the world, but
only as long as the waters keep rushing down. It's a continuous and
continued effort, very similar to the Eternal Battle in Prax. Maybe
both are just a different aspect of the same phenomenon.
BTW, part of this was spawned from my debate with Peter Metcalfe-switched
Whitelaw.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 19 Aug 1994
Message-ID: <9408191728.AA03968@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 19 Aug 94 05:28:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5783
Klaus:
>Sandy said some time ago that the Veldang are really Vadeli.
This is a distortion of my position. I actually said that
maybe the Vadeli could magically "discover" that the Veldang were
Blue Vadeli, and wouldn't it be a treat to PCs everywhere. But I
don't think the Veldang are actually Vadeli or ever were.
Dave Pearton
>What does the lozenge rest on?
The "lozenge" part of Gloranthan is actually only the Earth
part. The rest of it is rather egg-shaped. So, the lozenge rests on
the World Ocean. Glorantha itself, the universe, is surrounded by
chaos. Certainly if you go to Hell and visit the mountainous
hinterlands on the borders of Hell, there are fortresses inhabited by
anti-Chaos cults and entities, who fight off incursions and raids
from Outside.
>if all the waters rushed to fill the gaping hole in the cosmos
>created by the destruction of the spike where is the water going -
>(out of the cosmos?) and if so is will the water ever going to run
>out completely?
The gap created by the spike formed a hole into Chaos in the
MIDDLE of the universe (completely surrounded by Glorantha). Kind of
a dimensional rift, if you will. The worst chaos monsters stepped out
of it. The gap was finally filled by the oceans, under the
ministrations of Magasta, and now the water is simply recycling -- it
pours through the hole down into Hell, where it enters the Styx from
which it flows back up and around again, entering the world either
from the northwest or the southeast. No one knows how long the cycle
takes -- it may be centuries before the same batch of water comes
round again.
Bob Luckin:
>if Genert doesn't want to be reconstructed, why are Issaries/Desert
>Trackers cultists so keen to do so ?
I didn't say Genert didn't want to be reconstructed. I just
said it might not be wise to do so. The Issaries cult is keen to do
because of an obscure cult dogma -- basically either Issaries or one
of his children (depending on which myth you read) fell in love with
this goddess, see, but she wouldn't have him. So she set him a task
before she'd wed him, and that task is the reconstruction of her
father -- Genert. So Issaries tasks his followers with completing
this job for him.
Presumably once Issaries finishes the job, he'll get to marry
his sweetie, and maybe his Runes will change. You suggest that maybe
this aspect of Issaries was introduced by the God Learners -- I
suggest that more likely is that this task was RESTRICTED to a single
subcult of Issaries by the God Learners, who found it an irksome
chore -- I assume that before the Second Age, all Issaries cultists
were burdened with this job.
>some don't like the idea of Bullwinkle hsunchen.
I LIKE the idea of Bullwinkle hsunchen. I just don't want
them to be Pralori, because then this huge and influential political
group will be Bullwinkle hsunchen. I want Bullwinkle hsunchen to
infest the fringes of society, not the mainstream.
Alex F.
>my continuing suspicion that the \infty rune _really_ means "member
>of the Celestial Court"
Well, certainly all the members of the court had the infinity
Rune. On the other hand, Flamal & the Invisible God don't seem to
have been. Of course, the Invisible God doesn't fit into the whole
Celestial Court ethos anyway.
Alex Ferguson:
>I s'pose [shoulder-to-shoulder] makes them as "close", but at least
>they're less dense wrt gunfire through the formation than a deeper
>formation. I can only suppose that either rates of fire were still
>slow enough that advancing thusly was only moderately suicidal, or
>that the commanders didn't know (or care) that it was.
The shallowness of formations was a reaction to cannonballs,
not musket balls. A musket ball is pretty much stopped by the first
guy it hits, whereas a 12-lb solid-shot cuts a narrow swath through
the unit. The Swiss pikemen, who fought in very deep units (30 men+
at times), were slow to adapt to the appearance of cannon on the
battlefield and paid heavily for it.
The shoulder-to-shoulder formation in musketry times was not
because of slow rates of fire, but because in order to carry through
an attack on an enemy line, you needed a big block of dudes.
Otherwise, the defenders wouldn't bother to run away, they'd just
shoot you. Also, your own men would lose heart and fail to press
through the charge. The result: your attack fails and your guys are
killed. If you have a big mass, your guys still get killed, but your
attack has a chance of succeeding, which could win the battle.
Also, muskets are inaccurate (and your troops are really
terrible marksmen, trained to "level muskets", not aim). So you could
fire off a volley, then charge. Since the enemy can only hit you at
100 yards or so, the defenders only get a couple volleys before
you've smacked into them with the bayonet (well, actually they run
away just before you reach them, but the effect is the same).
In the American Civil War, muskets were replaced with rifles.
These were accurate at a much longer range (as far as a modern
high-power military rifle, actually), plus Americans had a tradition
of trying to aim their weapons, so individual standards of
marksmenship were superior to most European armies. The result was
that an attacker had to charge over 300-400 yards taking fire, and
much more deadly fire, than in Napoleonic times. Different tactics
had to be developed and used, but the basic attack still had to be
the same as in Napoleon's time -- running up a hill at the bad guys.
In the American Civil War cavalry finally lost its battlefield
usefulness, though. (Cavalry was still essential as scouts and
raiders, but not as mounted combat troops.) Horses could charge
infantry in 1815 and take only one volley before they hit. But no
horse could withstand rifle fire. This was widely disbelieved in
Europe, and cavalry was considered to be a shock force well into WWI.
Hell, cavalry was used in battle in WWII, but only the Poles thought
it was a good idea to charge good-order enemy troops with 'em.
David Cake:
>Sandy, thanks for the info about hyenas. Can I get you to say more
>on this general subject?
Do you have something specific in mind?
I've now discovered (via Henk) that David Cake lives in Oz. I now
must argue strenuously against my earlier proposed switch of Cake and
Hall, because relocating TotRM to Oz would be harmful to American
interests.