Bell Digest v940826p1

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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 26 Aug 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


From: (Robert McArthur)
Subject: Re: Wyters and Sorcerors and Shamans, Oh My!
Message-ID: <>
Date: 26 Aug 94 03:53:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5863

John Medway on DP magic
> Intrinsic Magic:
> ----------------
> Physical Magic and Physical Agents:
> -----------------------------------
> Wyters
> ------

I think that the major magics - the exotics and chaotic - are different
to even the massive size normal magics.  The Red Emperor with the chemical
transformer can make large holes but, and here's the big butt, the superheroes
have special relationships to anything other than normal magic.  Even the
hugest blast from the RE can't touch Harreck (in the rules...)

So, I think there's something more to the exotics than just hyped up "normal"



From: (Jon Green)
Subject: A lone voice, crying in the wildebeest
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Aug 94 09:44:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5864

I note we haven't heard much from Devin recently.  At last I have uncovered
the reason!  "Devin" is in fact a False David, whose identity has become
hopelessly lost in the Great Davids Muddle!



From: (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Tying up a thread.
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Aug 94 16:47:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5866

>Subject: Moose, Elk and Deer

> What was the original thread that prompted this question?

The suggestion was made that the Elk hsunchen (Pralori) are really Moose.
After a lot of bickering and bad jokes, we have all (?) agreed that there
_are_ Moose hsunchen, but they're not the Pralori (not as numerous, for one
thing). My name for them, which was invented by one of the co-designers of
our local campaign, and has also been pushed by my faithful henchman, Dave
Dunham :-), is "Aleci".

Now that that's established, and the aforementioned jokes are out of our
respective systems, can we drop this?

(      Jonas Schiott                                   )
(      Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria      )
(      Goteborgs Universitet                           )


From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: More DP magic
Date: 25 Aug 94 13:29:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5868

Tim Minas in X-RQ-ID: 5851

>    DP Magic

>         Joerg: The counters in the game are for convenience, mainly. They
> represent the ability of the unit to project it's magical power somewhere. The

True, but they also attack very differently from any physical effect. IMO 
at least some elementals mostly are thwarted by physical defenses to 
some extent, so they should attack the combat factors, not magic factors.

> Sylphs are indeed unique as a physical agent with a different name to their
> "parent" unit.

They are one of three physical agents in the game. Were there more, we 
might have more different names. I know of a proposed NG counter which 
shoots out physical agents called spores. While I forgot the counter name, 
it was different from spores. Lightning Boy's agent is called lightning.

>    When I said MgF is Pow, stored mps, availability of spells like Shield,
> Countermagic etc, I was talking about MgF of NON-magician units, or those with
> DSM only.

This much we agree upon, although all of this influences a wyter as well.

>    Preparedness. Of course the Lunar units are prepared, they have been in
> existence and training for years just to fight battles and refine their
> techniques. Once you've summoned your spirits/elementals/etc, and placed them
> in the bindings, they are ready. And as for having enough bindings, matrices
> etc, the Lunar units probably have more than most, having been able to inherit
> all those produced by their predecessors in the units.

KoS tells us about the heavy losses the Lunar College of Magic takes at 
the defeat at Pennel Ford. Harrek gained possession of all the gold of 
the Solar magicians who tried to Sunburn/Skyspear him, and probably 
all the matrices as well. The Dragon at the opening ceremony at the 
Sartar Temple of the Reaching Moon ate whole units, and their enchantments 
as well. What the Lunars field against Argrath are partly replacement 
troops, partly units stationed elsewhere.

>    Sartar magical units are indeed weird. Everyone was surprised by how Argrath
> managed to get whole heaps of strange people to cooperate.

I have the suspicion that his journey around Glorantha with Harrek was a 
reenactment of Orlanth's role in the Vadrudi host during Godtime. Argrath 
tries to become the avatar of Orlanth. Orlanth had this nifty Ring of the 
Vingkotlings magic, and he created Ginna Jar as the wyter of the 
Lightbringers. I think Argrath makes use of all these things from 
Orlanth myth, by active power HQing. Plus a couple of new twists, which 
makes him different from ordinary Orlanthi HQers like Brian or Kallyr.
--  Joerg Baumgartner


From: (Joe Lannom)
Subject: I need ragnaglar info
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Aug 94 14:11:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5869

Hi folks

I'm looking for something akin to a cult write up for Ragnaglar.  I  
know, I know, he's dead... but that doesn't stop anyone from  
worshipping gbaji, why should it get in the way of several broo  
shaped fanatics?

Anyone with any speculation as to what he was like as a god,  his  
powers, any divine spells he might have bestowed to worshippers  
before he was killed.

History notes would be great, I know what he did to annoy the whole  
Orlanth clan, etc, but before that, after the great 'pit' incident  
and before the rape of Thed are sketchy.

Please either post here, or send e-mail. 




From: (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Moose mania & a weird thought
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Aug 94 19:50:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5870

Nils Weinander writing

Expect lots of typos in this message. I seem to do everything wrong today.

Some thoughts on the great moose/elk debate:

It seems as though americans and europeans have different opinions on
this animal. Just to be totally explicit, I'm talking about Alces Alces,
the huge deer.

Those of american origin who have expressed their views on the elk/moose
find it funny, those of european origin don't. That's really interesting.

In swedish folklore or whatever you wish to call it, the elk/moose is
regarded as the king of the animals, nothing comic or silly there, just

Joerg wrote:

>Who is this Bullwinkle? What's so funny about a beast likely to crush 
>the upper half of your car when you crash into it, including the 
>upper half of the passengers? A beast able to look Alex and me in the 
>eyes when it lowers its head? A beast able to scare the heck out of 
>today's overgrown cattle, not to speak about the smaller (about Merino 
>sheep-sized, or Galloway) cattle the Gloranthans have? And yet able to 
>hide mere 20 paces from you, right within sight?

I agree completely. A bull elk/moose is about 230 cm high, weighs in
at say 500 kg. Yet it moves silently as a ghost. To meet such a beast
in the forest is a great experience, and they _don't_ look silly in
their natural surroundings.

As an interesting sidenote: the swedish 17th century king Karl XI set
up a small troop of elk/moose cavalry. They functioned mainly as
messengers and were rather successful, but the experiment didn't last
because it was difficult to get enough animals (and presumably not
that easy to domesticate them).

The other day I had a really weird thought on Gloranthan magic. It has
been posited in most heroquest speculations that on the heroplane/godtime
time doesn't flow, and consequently natural processes like death, MP
recovery etc. don't occur. When you can't regain MP in a normal way,
you are not likely to spend them as freely. A heroquest is one thing,
that's (hopefully) a temporary visit to the timeles world, but before
the Dawn I guess that the situation was different.

This would mean that spirit magic and sorcery, as they are performed
in the third age, are rather recent innovations. Of the modern day
Gloranthan magic only divine magic doesn't rely on MPs and would thus
be the only magic which existed/looked the same before time.

Now, I'm not saying it really works like this, but the implications
are so weird that I had to write this down for some debate on it. So,
what do you think?

/Nils W


From: (Dave Cordes)
Subject: Trollball and Moose
Message-ID: <9408251650.AA16976@Sun.COM>
Date: 25 Aug 94 00:22:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5871

CL QM-SMTP gw                 Trollball and Moose
From Sandy (X-RQ-ID: 5844):
>>Who would be the ball?

Are you volunteering?


David Gadbois (X-RQ-ID: 5857): 
>> --David "not Baur, Blair, Blizzard, Cake, Camoirano, Cheng, Cordes,
>>Cowling, DeKruger, Dunham, Edison, Hall, Hayes, Hixon, Leighton,
>>Millians, Pearton, Radzik, Shubert, Simkins, Straub, Wible, or Williams
>>but" Gadbois

Wow, You're much better at this than I am.

Concerning Moose and Elk:

     In America: an Elk is an Elk, and a Moose is a Moose (Unless it's a
cartoon, then it's a bullwinkle).
     In Europe: a Moose is an Elk, and an Elk is a Red Deer.
     So what's the problem.  It's just the same old difference in point of
view.  Just as the Europeans don't mind the Lunars and us rebellious upstart
Americans think they are the "Evil Menace".

     Using American terms: elk (Cervus canadensis) are big: 350 kg(770 lbs),
1.5 m(5 ft) at the shoulder, 2.4 m(8 ft) long.  Males can have antlers that
span 1.5 m(5 ft), weight around 45 kg (100 lbs), and have 5-10 spikes per
side.  They have a grayish brown coat and a white rump.  They are believed by
many experts to be the same species as the European Red Deer (Cervus
elaphus).  They have been overhunted and now exist in the wild only in
southern Canada, the Rocky Mountains and the Central Valley of California
(this being the small tule elk). 

     Again using American terms:  Moose (Alces alces) are the largest of the
deer family (Cervidae).  In Europe they are called by the old Germanic name -
Elk.  Moose run 825 kg (1800 lbs), 2.3 m (7.5 ft) at the shoulder, and 3.1 m
(10ft) long.  Bulls typically have large broad spoon-shaped spiked antlers. 
Which may be 1.8 m (6 ft) across.  Massive animal with a large head, an
elongated overhanging muzzle, and a long flap of skin, called a bell, that
hangs beneath the throat.  They frequent moist forests of willows, poplars
and birch.  They also wade into lakes to graze on aquatic plants.

     We all seem to be argueing about the same two animals.  Just different
names.  All in all I have to agree with Joerg (Heaven help me):

>>...beast likely to crush the upper half of your car when you crash into
>>it, including the upper half of the passengers? A beast able to look Alex
>>and me in the eyes when it lowers its head? A beast able to scare the heck
>>out of today's overgrown cattle, not to speak about the smaller (about
>>Merino sheep-sized, or Galloway) cattle the Gloranthans have? And yet able
>>to hide mere 20 paces from you, right within sight?

Don't forget that they also move much faster than you'd expect.  Even in
heavy undergrowth.

Either of these animals would make a formidable foe if faced on his terms. 
And any Hsunchen based on them would certainly not be a race to be taken
lightly.  Regardless of their title of Baron or whatever.

However I'm afraid we will have to revoke Joerg's self proclaimed

>>Not being a native speaker, I might be considered impartial in this

due to a cultural involvement.  As stated earlier, the term Elk is an old
Germanic name.

David (But how can you be sure anymore?) Cordes

P.S. the information on the Elk and Moose came from the 1992 Grolliers
Encyclopedia and personal experience.

P.P.S. I just got the Runequest-Con Compendium yesterday.  Congratulations to
everyone involved.  This is a really nice piece of work.


From: (Brad Furst)
Subject: New book available
Date: 25 Aug 94 06:39:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5873

I found Oliver Dickinson's _The_Aegean_Bronze_Age_ (pub. Cambridge World 
Archaeology) at the bookstore yesterday.  Although he is already known as 
the author of the Griselda stories of Pavis, this book is nonfiction.  
The publisher's notes call this  "a scholarly, accessible and up-to-date 
introduction to the prehistoric civilisations of Greece...."


From: (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Why does ice float?
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Aug 94 09:10:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5874

Ah, you have asked a question that has perplexed many a young scholar.
The reason that ice floats, despite its ties with cold and darkness is
that ice is the child of cold and water.  It is the result of what happens
when cold forces its way upon one of Magasta's many Xth-grand-daughters.
The resulting spiritual child--ice, is not acceptible to Magasta nor to
his underlings, since it is spawn of a bastard mating.  Thus, water holds
it up and will not permit ice to permeate Magasta's realm.

Of course, there could also be the possibility that the Godlearners might
not have been 100% perfectly right when they invented the runes.


From: (David Dunham)
Subject: Ogres Eat Moose Riders by Moonlight in Naveria
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Aug 94 21:27:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5875

Ian Gorlick recommends
>For those of you who are having trouble with the notion of moose riders, may I 
>suggest a  novel by Sterling E. Lanier titled "Hiero's Journey". 

I remember liking this book a lot too. But the real question is, do
Hsunchen ride their totems? That's not how I pictured them. (I don't know
exactly what a leather-clad Slav looks like, but that sounds close.)

Chris Wehman says
I had heard that someone had posted an excellent
>unofficial write-up of ogres, i.e. physiology, habits, society. 

Have you seen the "Eat Your Enemy In Secret" writeup in Shadows on the

Nick Eden (not yet affected by the Nick switch despite living in the UK) says
>Nah, that isn't the red moon. Thats the bit of moon rock that supports 
>the moon boat by being pulled back towards the red moon. Look at the 
>lines of the boat.

Perhaps, but the boat is described as riding a beam of moonlight.

Joerg mentioned
>For an example, Greg's story about the Pelandan girl in his upcoming 
>Lunar book, read at the lecture at Convulsions, had her marry the 

Is this Naveria? She strikes me as one of the tragic figures of Gloranthan
mythology; she sets off, adventuress-like, to find her father, and ends up
as the goddess of domesticity, chained to a stove! At least she gets a land
named after her.


From: (Stuart Dobson)
Subject: Unsubcribe
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Aug 94 15:38:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5876

unsub list
Stuart Dobson


From: (Scott Haney)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 25 Aug 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Aug 94 21:59:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5877

Hi, Joerg..

& Who is this Bullwinkle? What's so funny about a beast likely to crush 
& the upper half of your car when you crash into it, including the 
& upper half of the passengers? A beast able to look Alex and me in the 
& eyes when it lowers its head? A beast able to scare the heck out of 
& today's overgrown cattle, not to speak about the smaller (about Merino 
& sheep-sized, or Galloway) cattle the Gloranthans have? And yet able to 
& hide mere 20 paces from you, right within sight?

Bullwinkle is an American cartoon moose.  He lives with his very
best friend Rocky the Flying Squirrel, and they generally spend their
time making really bad (or good :) puns and fending off Boris and
Natasha, two rather Slavic spies.

Bullwinkle J. Moose does for Moosedom what Barry Manilow does for
thrash metal, so forgive us poor Colonists, for we can't think of
moose without giggling.


\                                  \           _         ______ |
 \     Scott Haney                  \        /   \___-=0`/|0`/__|
  \                                  \_______\          / | /    )
  /                                  /        `/-==__ _/__|/__=-|
 / /         *             \ | |
/__________________________________/                        (o)


Subject: nothing about DP counters
Message-ID: <>
Date: 26 Aug 94 00:39:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5878 says some interesting points about light
rising, shadow sinking, etc.  Greg endorsed this view at RQ Con,
where he explained the horizon through this mechanism.  Ice, BTW,
is a rune that Greg and Sandy wish they had never published.  Ice
floats because ... oh, it's so obvious I needn't burden you with
the explanation.

As for gems, I've got a lot of stuff on that, taking the position
that each gem has a different origin.  When AOL gets to the far
side of the Atlantic, you can get it from the AOL Roleplaying
file library.  I should probably also send it to soda.berkeley.

Congratulations to Robert McArthur of Oz for a posting where any
original text was only readable by those of us with noble blood
(you could read them, couldn't you?)  Ranks right up there with
double posting in the dubious achievement awards.



From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: The Jonatelan Thaw.
Message-ID: <>
Date: 26 Aug 94 06:38:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5879

> > wasn't Timms only partially thawed to _Jonatela_ before its borders
> > to the outside world thawed, rather than vice versa?

> Jonatela embraced its western parts before 1616 (when it opened to the 
> rest). Timms thawed earlier, in 1597 (induced by the Lunars).

As you were, I'd managed to misremember and misunderstand a misleadingly
written paragraph in G:G.  (p15c3para2, to be precise)  Presumably the
area actually being referred to is the "JON" of "JONATELA"...  But while
we're on this subject, why do you say the thaw was induced by the Lunars?
G:G blames Dona boatmen, after all.  Though this could cover people from
Eastpoint egged on the Lunars, I suppose.



From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Garzeen, et le stuff.
Message-ID: <>
Date: 26 Aug 94 06:41:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5880

Sandy on Garzeen's Quest for Love:
> I suggest that more likely is that this task was RESTRICTED to a single  
> subcult of Issaries by the God Learners, who found it an irksome  
> chore -- I assume that before the Second Age, all Issaries cultists  
> were burdened with this job. 

I suggest that more likely is that before the God Learners, Garzeen was
an entirely separate cult, with this peculiar practice, and they retained
it when the GLers "discovered" he was Issaries' son.

> >my continuing suspicion that the \infty rune _really_ means "member  
> >of the Celestial Court" 

> 	Well, certainly all the members of the court had the infinity  
> Rune. On the other hand, Flamal & the Invisible God don't seem to  
> have been. Of course, the Invisible God doesn't fit into the whole  
> Celestial Court ethos anyway. 

And isn't the original owner of any rune, either.  I think his infinity
rule is a) problematical: has anyone successfully cast RuneQuest Sight
on the bleeder? and b) means something different to either of the above
taxonomies.  Flamal's a bit of a sticking point, I admit.

> 	The shoulder-to-shoulder formation in musketry times was not  
> because of slow rates of fire, but because in order to carry through  
> an attack on an enemy line, you needed a big block of dudes.

Yeah, that's the reason _for_ it; the slow rate of fire is what would
make it (relatively) survivable.

> I've now discovered (via Henk) that David Cake lives in Oz. I now  
> must argue strenuously against my earlier proposed switch of Cake and  
> Hall, because relocating TotRM to Oz would be harmful to American  
> interests. 

This sounds worrying like the sort of proclamation that issues forth from
the Oval Office immediately before some small Caribbean island gets invaded.



From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Myths about Floods of Cheese.
Message-ID: <>
Date: 26 Aug 94 06:46:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5881

Devin Cutler there:
> Without wanting to insult those who thought the Anaxial the Sailor myth
> (GRoY) was brilliant stuff, does anyone else find this blatant ripoff of
> Terran flood myths to be a bit cheesy?

Nope.  Isn't the idea of non-derivative mythology somewhat like the old
Rolf Harris line, "Here's an old English folk song which I've just written"?

> In any case, why would the Sky Gods choose rain as a way of cleansing. Isn't
> rain a vehicle of the rebel gods?

Perhaps the fact that Dara Happa is (presumably) subject to flooding by the
Oslir is relevant here.