Bell Digest v940830p2

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 30 Aug 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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From: (Scott Haney)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 29 Aug 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <>
Date: 29 Aug 94 22:04:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5934

& From: (Bryan J. Maloney)
& Subject: Moose and Squirrel
& In my campaign, the followers of Baron Moosehsunchen are called "Moose Folk"
& by the virtous, freedom-loving, libertarian Theyalans and "Elk Folk" by the
& vile, chaos-sucking, totalitarian Lunars.

Ah, fleeting fame.... :)

& would talk to would call them "Those godawful damn-BIG Hsunchen!"

Bingo!  Why not just play them?  Elk, moose, who cares?  Some giant
of a man with horns and a maul isn't going to turn my mind to
taxonomy...I'll be thinking more of track and field!

\                                  \           _         ______ |
 \     Scott Haney                  \        /   \___-=0`/|0`/__|
  \                                  \_______\          / | /    )
  /                                  /        `/-==__ _/__|/__=-|
 / /         *             \ | |
/__________________________________/                        (o)


From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 27 Aug 1994, part 1
Date: 30 Aug 94 00:42:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5935

Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 5885

> As Entekosa is a Pelorian rather than Dara Happan deity, the fact that 
> neither Orlanthi nor Dara Happans comprehend her does not mean we can't. 
> Given that Entekos is the Mother of Moons, and Molanni apparently is not, 
> this seems to me to blow a hole in the identification of the two.

I have been discussing this with Peter for a while. What I think came 
out confused/confusingly was our discussion about the identity of Gods 
Wall II-1, given as Entekos by Plentonius. Peter pointed correctly 
at the identity of this figure's rune and that of Dendara on the Copper 
Ledger on p.4.

> I can't pretend to follow PHM's argument: he says that Entekos is not the 
> Mother of Moons, and that Annilla is not a Moon, and that therefore... at 
> this point I become lost.

Hmm. Entekos seems not to be the mother of the Blue Moon, whatever is 
true about the rest. When I asked what makes a stellar body a moon in 
the Convulsion Lore Auction, Greg didn't know. What moons are we talking 
about, anyway? Planets going through phases of some kind?

> In the Entekosiad, Ariria, Naveria/Sedenya, Lesilla and Koveria are the 
> daughters of MaElsor, not of Dendara. Can't think where the latter came 
> from.

Does she appear at all?

>> I challenge him to produce one example where [Godtime] was otherwise.

> Voria. Firstborn and lastborn of the gods. KoS p.67, 89.

That's just cyclical time - Voria's birth is the mark of the beginning 
of an era. Voria was born as Asrelia, and then as Ernalda, and ...

--  Joerg Baumgartner


From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: The Flood again
Date: 30 Aug 94 00:43:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5936

Devin's Homonculus in X-RQ-ID: 5899

> "Perhaps the fact that Dara Happa is (presumably) subject to flooding by the
> Oslir is relevant here."

> Certainly, that is what I pictured as the underlying MO of the flood, but
> nevertheless, Plentonius describes it as a cleansing event initiated, albeit
> indirectly, by the Sky Gods (Yelm). Therefore, I am still perplexed why Yelm
> would choose to cleanse the world with an impure element (Water), using a
> Rebellus Terminus vehicle (Rain) to cause to flood a Lower and therefore
> unclean deity (Oslira).

Water as a means to devour bad influences is a common theme, in Glorantha 
see e.g. Waha's use of the Founders River. Why pollute sacred fire when 
impure water serves perfectly well to absorb the impurities?

Rain is a feature I don't quite believe that soon in the Lesser 
Darkness - the waters still flowed uphill in that Age of the world.

> One would think that, considering all of these impure elements have ganged up
> on Darra Happa, that rather than a cleansing action, this would have been
> regarded as an invasion.

What happened IMO was that the invasion which had been suspended by 
Murharzarm was continued after Oslira had been released from her old 
--  Joerg Baumgartner


From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Mindblasts and Thunderstones
Date: 30 Aug 94 01:33:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5937

Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 5893

>>The real difference is that the Lunars have Fear, Mindblast and  
>>Madness, the Sartarites have only Demoralize and Befuddle
>	Why don't the Sartarites have Lightning, Thunderbolt, Sever  
> Spirit (for the Humakti among 'em), & Thunderstones? These seem  
> nearly as useful as the Lunar assault magics. 

Lightning and Thunderbolt are somewhat Storm parallels to Sunspears, 
Sever Spirit is Yanafal Tarnils magic (although one-use), and 
Thunderstones are similar to Selenes in their effect. I was talking 
about mind-affecting spells, something the Lunars dominate.

--  Joerg Baumgartner


From: (David Dunham)
Subject: Vinga; Hsunchen; Rocky & Bullwinkle
Message-ID: <>
Date: 30 Aug 94 03:19:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5938

Alison Place complained
>5.  Vinga = Orlanth Adventurous for women.
>     I don't like this one at all, for several reasons.  Since Orlanth 
>is open to women, as well as men, why stick women in a special cult, 
>unless there is something very distinctive about it, such as emphasising 
>a dual heritage from both Ernalda and Orlanth?  Also, why identify them 
>to all and sundry (not, presumably, that they aren't proud of it) by 
>making them spend tons of money on hair dye?  The last thing that  
>occurs to me is that everyone then thinks of Vinga only as Orlanth's 
>daughter.  Special abilities gained from her powerful mother, or 
>behaviour influenced strongly by her, are more likely to be ignored.

I enjoyed your Vinga story in the RQ Con Compendium, and was sorry that
some sort of printing error clipped part of it. Thanks for reposting it.

I think 85% of all Orlanthi women worship Ernalda as their primary deity
(at least as mature women, we'll ignore Voria and Asrelia). Of the
remaining 15%, worship would be split among Chalana Arroy, Issaries,
Lhankor Mhy, Yinkin, and Orlanth. Most, but not all, of the women who
worship Orlanth are in the Vinga subcult. (Women thanes would belong to
Orlanth Rex, for example.)

As you're well aware, the info we have on Vinga is mighty scanty, and the
only additional information is that she's worshipped as a subcult of
Orlanth. This doesn't necessarily mean that Orlanth is her father (though
both of us have assumed so). We have no information on her parentage --
she's notably absent from the Genealogy on KoS.63. I figured making her a
child of Orlanth and Ernalda (or Ralia, since I dabble in Ralian myth) was
too common. However, our myths could be reconciled by the fact that Ernalda
(Ralia) would have generously taught her stepdaughter a few Earth secrets
after she joined Orlanth's stead.

In my Ralios campaign, the Vinga worshippers all seem to enjoy liming their
hair to set themselves apart. It's something special they get to do, not
something they have to do to worship Orlanth.

A quote I ran across that might illuminate hsunchen:

"We Lapps have the same nature as the reindeer: in the springtime we long
for the mountains; in the winter we are drawn to the woods." --Turi's Book
of Lappland

>     In 1988, TSR (used to stand for Tactical Studies Rules, now
>stands for nothing in particular) put out the Bullwinkle and
>Rocky tm Roleplaying Party Game.  It came with hand-puppets, two
>dimensional rotating randomizers, and other neat stuff.  I'd be
>interested to know if anyone has actually PLAYED this game.

I think I did play this once, at a party. It was a Warren Spector design,
right? I don't remember much else about it, but I think it was a decent


From: (David Cake)
Subject: Toon-Quest
Message-ID: <>
Date: 30 Aug 94 19:51:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5939

        I know that at least one game of Toon-Quest has been played over
here, though not as based on particular cartoons as the suggestions made,
and also with a more adult flavour. But it was called Toon-Quest.
        Characters included the expected ducks and hobbits, a baboon who
fought with a staff and rode on a sylph that appeared as a small pink cloud
(people unfamiliar with the japanese TV series Monkey will not understand
this one - suffice to say that it was an extremely trashy and silly
adventure series based on the classical Chinese tale, well known to most
Australians (the TV, not the classical Chinese stories)), and the infamous
Serge, a great troll of rather alternative sexuality who worried the others
a great deal.

        I was not a participant, so that is all I can tell you about
                Dave Cake


From: (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Conceal and thief cults
Message-ID: <>
Date: 30 Aug 94 20:19:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5940

        Someone recently mentioned that Annilla was the only cult to get a
spell resembling invisibility.
        Annilla is the only cult (so far) to get Invisibility the spirit
magic spell, but Conceal is available to the trickster Thief aspect.

        May I also take this opportunity to lament the lack of a decently
developed PC thief cult in RQ3?
        Krarsht is to chaotic to use as a PC cult.  In any case the short
form version from GoG is a lot less interesting than the Cults of Terror
version - hopefully some of the fun stuff wil be restored in Lords of
Terror? It seems to be still valid, as Polybius from Sun County has
pratzim, Conceal, Krarshtkids, Sense Order, and poison brewing, all absent
from the GoG write up. I like it all, as it made Krarsht a really
resourceful and interesting enemy cult, while the GoG Krarsht seems to be a
lot less subtle. I think that all these abilities should return, and Impede
Law, Face Law, Krarshtides, and teeth of Krarsht. I am not sure about the
spell Image Creation, though, as it made disguise far too easy, and there
are no other spirit magic illusion spells. Perhaps as a Divine spell? Maybe
even a sub-cult divine spell?
        Trickster has too many other connotations, as while trickster is a
thief, many thieves consider themselves part of society, not outcasts. The
many other connotations of trickster may only be appropriate for some
characters - the humour, the selfish murderer, the glutton. 
        So that leaves thief cults only, most of which are extremely small,
and the fact that most can only maintain shrines mean that most thieves are
limited to a single divine spell, in many cases one that is not even
directly useful in thievery. The thief cults are also woefully
        I would like a more detailed writeup of something like Lanbril,
complete with a few more magics for those thieves that can manage more than
a shrine, and with more effort put into describing what other benefits the
cult offers, perhaps even a few spirit magics available. While I admit that
Lanbril was overdeveloped in RQ2 (with all their skills and gadgets they
became sort of Orlanthi ninja) but a few skills and gadgets, and minor
spells, would be nice.
        In my game the one thief character has joined Lanbril, and I have
basically been winging it, using the RQ2 writeup as a potential list of all
that might be available, and then vetoing anything I don't like (which is a
lot). However, very few people are lucky enough to have access to the RQ2
Lanbril write up (from Pavis).
        For those interested, I have vetoed Forget, Invisibility, and
Conceal (I may allow Conceal eventually, possibly as 1-use to priests), but
I have allowed Divination Block (currently being used to stop Duke Raus
discovering the location of his stolen wand of the Red Moon), and the
special spirit magic spell Face of Lanbril (I consider this is not exactly
an illusion, but an attention affecting spell like Conceal. It does not
divert attention entirely, like Conceal, but it does make it very hard to
recall details). I also assume that Black Fang has some access to Conceal,
in addition to Shattering. 
                Dave Cake


From: (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 27 Aug 1994
Message-ID: <>
Date: 29 Aug 94 06:30:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5929

>I think the modern consensus is for a red moon visible practically  
>everywhere in Glorantha,  visibly going through its phases both  
>inside and outside the Glowline.
	Though I basically agree with this, there must be  
_some_difference in her appearance within the Glowline. Perhaps the  
"dark" part of the moon is just a different shade of red. Or maybe  
there is some sort of nimbus -- a lunar corona -- visible only within  
the Glowline that keeps the light equally bright at all times.  
Perhaps it intensifies during dark/dying days to make up for the  
dimmer moon?

>I think the point of the Magical Regiments isn't the _magic_, it's  
>the _regimentation_.  

	Strong Concurrence. Hearty agreement. Hear, hear. 

	The Lunar innovation in making the magicians a disciplined  
organized force is as great, I feel, as the invention of walking in  
step, the stirrup, or the nomad innovation of Not Taking Your  
Families With You To War. It is a fundamental alteration in  
Gloranthan warfare. 

	Just the fact that you're now able to have an entire regiment  
cast Sunspear in the same strike rank makes a pretty damn big  
difference in combat. Just the threat of them doing so probably has a  
pretty major morale effect on any enemy units that draw within 100  

Pam C.
>In short, moose seem gentle and comic to most North Americans,   
>while wapiti seem fierce and noble.
	An excellent summation. Given that North Americans actually  
live in a country where both moose and elk exist, whereas our British  
and German friends don't have any of 'em, unless you count the  
undersized Red Deer, you'd think they'd give more credence to our  
debased American interpretations of these beasts. 

>Maybe this is because wapiti are herd animals, famed for their  
>fighting abilities, while moose are solitary, shy  critters
	Two other emergency back-up reasons. (1) the moose cry is  
distinctly a honk, whereas the bull wapiti emits a real roar. And (2)  
no one I know has ever had a problem with a moose -- I know a guy who  
walked into his barn to find a moose there, got mad at it, and it  
left sheepishly. He'd _never_ have done that to a wapiti. While a  
moose is manifestly big enough and strong enough to put the kibosh on  
your station wagon, they don't _do_ it. But anyone with the slightest  
bit of wilderness savvy knows to keep away from elk in the wrong  

>If you mean the red deer of Europe, that's at most SIZ 13, not the  
>SIZ 22 buggers you talk about below.
	The "Deer" of the RuneQuest Official Monsters Book is in fact  
the European Red Deer (which is bigger than SIZ 13, at least for  
bucks). This is also very similar anatomically to the American Elk or  
Wapiti or whatever. However, it is LOTS smaller. 

>Since you're the biology expert, what environment did the Irish Elk  
>live in?
	To the best of my recollection, unaided by my tomes of  
ancient lore, it lived in open grassland. Or whatever passes for open  
grassland in Northern Europe. 

>Did the lost tribes of Praxian Beast Riders die out when the Oakfed  
>deforestation took their means of subsistance from them?
	No doubt this made an initial impact. The gradually  
deteriorating nature of the Wastes during Godtime probably also took  
its toll. Note that in the First Age, the Rhino Riders nearly went  
extinct. While the Rhinos narrowly avoided this fate, the Nose-Horn  
folk might not have been so adaptable. 

	The Nose-Horn folk, by the way, were Synceros riders -- an  
antelope-like animal with three horns. Two over the eyes and one down  
near the nose which forked near the end. They were probably pygmies. 

	A friend of mine in California runs a stupendous scenario  
involving the last of the Elephant tribe, in which the tribe's  
pathetic remnants try to herd their "herd" (consisting of a single  
pregnant cow) to safety over the wilds of Prax. 

>English hasn't been heard in the United States for a century.
	While I cheerfully accept such billingsgate from ostensible  
English speakers, I balk at doing so from someone whose native tongue  
is another Germanic language entirely. 

> I'd have expected an associate relation between Issaries and  
>Garzeen at first. 

	Yeah, this is possible. But the overlap between Issaries and  
Garzeen (I believe) was so great that soon everyone who worshiped  
Garzeen _also_ worshiped Issaries. From there, it was just a short  
step to subculthood. The entire process may have taken only a  
century. Presto! By the Second Age's Dawn, Garzeen is Issaries. 

>What kind of transport do the western Issaries traders prefer 

>(Fronela, Ralios, Maniria, Jrustela, Umathela)? As long as there are 

>decent roads or rivers, no reason not to use say ox-carts or barges.
	Mules have several advantages. First, they're stronger than  
burros. Second, they're a lot cheaper to buy (and in upkeep) than  
horses. They're faster than oxen. They're an all-around good pack  

	And if you're traveling in Western areas that have  
prohibitions against certain class-members riding horses, well ...
	Which is not to say that there aren't plenty of Issaries  
merchants using oxcarts or barges. But the mule is still, I feel,  
known, liked, and used even in the West. You're also safe if you are  
visiting the Galanini (who might have objections to outsiders riding  
horses), or the Doraddi (who have bad memories of horse-riders). 

	In Glorantha, there are various mythic encumbrances upon the  
horse. On Earth, there are none, but mules are still thought to be  
useful. On Glorantha, I feel they are even more so.

>And where in Glorantha do we find donkeys in the wild? 

	Perhaps nowhere. Maybe all the wild burros left in Glorantha  
are feral. They're certainly a handy beast if you're a Western  
cultist who doesn't allow his peasants to ride horses. I'm not sure  
where native wild burros live on Earth. There are some wild asses in  
the midEast, but I betcha they're not quite the same.  

Ian Gorlick:
> The recent discussion about Hyaena prompted me to think about what 

>their position is in Prax.  The list of large carnivores is very  
>short, and consists of Allosauri (huge!), cliff toads (restricted  
>habitat?), Deinonychi (sight hunters, therefore daytime only) and  
>very occasional tigers and Smilodons in the Zola Fel Valley, plus  
>the hyaenas.  

	Note also that the Allosaurs and Deinonychi, IMO, are  
stragglers from Shadows Dance or Balazar, about as common as jaguars  
in the United States (where they _do_ sometimes show up, but not very  
damn often). Tigers and Smilodons are definitely from the Rockwoods  
and Zola Fel, and not a real competitor on the plains or Wastes. 

	In the Godtime there'd have been lions, too, but they're  
gone. All that is left are humans, morocanth, and hyenas. There are  
also chaos wolves in the northwestern part of the Wastes. And  
probably a few regular wolves, too. If anyone accepts my theory that  
there are coyotes in the Wastes, then you have them as well, but they  
aren't going to pull down an adult of any herd animal except an  

	The hyenas may not be quite as dominant in Prax itself,  
because of the competition from other carnivores, but in the Wastes,  
they're top dog. 

>Hyaenas must be a dominant carnivore, and the true hunter of the 

>night on the plains.  

	I, too, champion this theory. I think that the Praxians  
absolutely detest the damn things. I also think that almost every  
Praxian clan is followed at a distance of a mile or two by a pack of  

> I'd be interested to know if anyone has actually PLAYED this game  
[Rocky & Bullwinkle, by TSR].