From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 22 Sep 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: from Sandy
Message-ID: <9409211655.AA00612@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 21 Sep 94 04:56:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6310
Mike Dawson:
>Where is the place of the "bug hunt" or dungeon crawl in the RQ
>line?
Practically all of us switched to RQ from D&D or some other
lesser system. We did this (probably) for three reasons: first, the
neat world to play in, much better than the vanilla D&D universe;
second, the fact that we could do stuff _other_ than combat (everyone
remember the bad old days, when the GM had to figure out whether or
not we could jump a crevice, so he asked us to make a Save vs.
Petrifaction?); third, the fact that D&D combat was so bogus as to
fail to reproduce _any_ fantasy books we'd ever read. RQ solved all
three problems by putting us into an interesting non-milksop world,
taking away our character classes, and giving us realistic and fun
options in combat. Now, I realize that not everyone like RQ combat,
even among RQ fans. But I have a sneaking suspicion that many of us
have a guilty enjoyment of an hour or two of raw baddie-bashing.
When I first switched to RQ, my D&D-playing friends saw it as
a flaw of RQ that the combats took so long. "You could have killed a
dozen monsters by now if you were playing D&D." They, of course,
missed the point. Killing a dozen D&D monsters isn't as fun as one RQ
combat vs. another human being in which the wounds matter, the spells
you cast matter, the tactics you choose matter, etc. RQ ends up with
much less combat than D&D in numbers of bad guys slain, but there's
probably at least as much time spent in _running_ combat in a RQ
campaign as there is in a mature D&D campaign.
Anyway, I have no objection to an evening of combat in my own
RQ campaign. On the other hand, the question Mike asked was whether
or not Avalon Hill should publish same. Hmm.
Klaus O K
>Several posters have used the proverb "violence is always an option"
>as proof that Orlanthi society is a very violent one. Am I the only
>one to think that this proverb cuts both ways?
It is my opinion that this proverb, while twisted into many
different useful Orlanthi meanings, is actually a pacifistic saying,
boiling down to "if _this_ doesn't work, we can always resort to
violence". I.e., let's try something else first. We can fight him
later, if need be.
Alex is being noxious about Pamaltela being actually more fertile and
better than Genertela:
> Fertility does put an upper bound on the population density of a
>(sufficiently large) area though, and if the population if depressed
>below this for some other reason, it would similarly put the kibosh
>on the Pameltela Good, Genertela Bad.
Teeming millions of oppressed peasants is probably a bad
defense of the "Genertela is as fertile as Pamaltela" argument. As
Previously Stated, the Doraddi live in a large flat land area which,
by all rights, should be a dire desert like unto the Sahara or Gobi.
Yet it is as fertile as the American Great Plains or the African
Savannah, and plenty of folk, dinosaurs, and plants thrive there.
This I attribute directly to the benign influence of Pamalt. In
addition, the most fertile land, biologically-speaking, is swampland
and rain forest -- the productivity of these types of terrain is
staggeringly higher than any other -- much _much_ higher than
agricultural land, for instance. Pamaltela seethes with both jungle
and swamp, the most fertile land. And Pamaltela's swamps _aren't_
chaos-infested nightmares. Another sign of Pamaltela's superiority.
>The basis of the Death of Genert myth is the whole Nasty Chaos
>Incident. However, only the Praxians believe that this seriously
>buggered things up, fertility-wise.
How can you say this? I know for a fact that the Westerners
believe this as well -- they've published statements about it. Seeing
as both the West and the Praxians believe this truth, it stands to
reason that others do as well. As I recall, the Kralori reason that
the outside world is completely hosed partially because of the death
of Genert ("lucky us, with an emperor"). And no doubt other cases can
be found. No doubt the God Learner spreading of the Monomyth has
something to do with everyone now believing that Genert's death
harmed Genertelan fertility, but this does _not_ mean that the
connection is not real. They simply spread the facts around.
>Those of us wheeling out Genert and Pamalt as parallel equal
>brothers, and concluding that as a result, everything in Genertela
>is Broken, and everything in Pamaltela is Fixed seem to be viewing
>the continents through spectacles with oddly-coloured lenses.
As the person who's spent the very most time in Pamaltela, I
submit that Pamaltela, while not heaven, contains generally happier
inhabitants than Genertela, which is nonetheless not hell. Note that
I do _not_ believe Genert and Pamalt to be "equal brothers". The
correlation of Genert and Pamalt I believe to be a God Learner false
comparison, probably made in order to further villainous Brooke-like
plots against the peace of both continents.
The resemblances between Genert and Pamalt are purely
superficial, like the similarities between a dolphin and a shark.
Genert was an earth-god who ruled a peaceful empire and was slain
trying to preserve his land. Pamalt was an underling who rose to
prominence when the enemy came and as the result of his victory,
became the ruler of the land. If there is a parallel here, it is an
inverse one (hey, I like that!) -- you have Genert heading in a
steady trajectory from the top to the bottom, with Pamalt coming out
of nowhere rising to the top. Genert was among the first to fight,
Pamalt was among the last. Genert stood alone. Pamalt used
cooperation and leaned on his friends. Genert was a creature of the
Earth. Pamalt was the friend of everyone, from fire to darkness to
life to death.
HOWEVER, despite this disparities, Genertela suffers from the
lack of its primeval Earth God. Pamaltela glories in the benefits of
having a single ruling entity who governs the continent wisely. The
truth is more complex than just saying that Pamaltela has what
Genertela lacks. Genertela never had an entity like unto Pamalt.
Pamaltela may not ever have had a Genert-equivalent (or if it did, it
might have been Artmal).
BUT Pamaltela does have a ruler of the gods who governs
benignly and Genertela does not. Pamaltela was not particularly
hammered in the chaos wars whereas Genertela took it on the chin.
The result is that Genertela is shafted, not just in
fertility but in hundreds of tiny little ways that we don't even
notice, since we live there. You have to go a long way to find
something like the Chaos Footprint in Pamaltela, but almost
everywhere in Genertela has some dreadful chaos nest within a week's
travel. So there. Nyah.
Alex F.
>Who thinks Sandy is about to be squished by a Gift Carrier? I'm
>glad to say I think he's cold enough to be pretty safe.
Now see here wiseacre. I happen to _know_ the damn secret of
the God Learners. At least, when I explained my beliefs to Greg, he
told me that them was the right ones, and not to tell anyone else
ever. But I might tell _you_ Alex, in hopes of getting the Gift
Carriers to nail you. ;)
>I wasn't counting humans, though, I was counting sentients. Of
>course, the non-humans infesting said areas don't worship Pamalt, so
>by rights I _should_ have excluded them, unless Pamalt goes out of
>his way to aid his enemies.
In the first place, there are heaps of sentients in
Pamaltela. Uncounted millions of elves and elf-relatives in the
jungle, and millions more goblins and mermen in the swamps. In the
second place, I don't think Pamalt only values sentient life. The
non-sentient life is at least as important to him -- plants, insects,
etc. He is the god of it all, not just the humans.
And in the third place, yes, Pamalt _does_ go out of his way
to aid his enemies. The elves by the way aren't Pamalt's enemies, but
the Doraddi's enemies.
>I just don't want to have to try to struggle to believe a handful of
>grain dropped in the middle of the veldt grows better than in an
>unblessed field in Esrolia.
These are not comparable situations. Ask rather whether a
handful of grain dropped in the midst of the veldt grows better than
a handful of grain dropped in the middle of the Balazar grasslands. I
say yes.
>5) there's dragonewts [on Teleos]
>Is it Known if these 'newts have an Inhuman King, or are heterodox
>in some way?
I would say "yes" to both questions.
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: alchemy
Message-ID: <9409212214.AA01905@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 21 Sep 94 10:15:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6318
This posting wrote itself in a response to Ifmenel of Valsburg's
theories about Gloranthan alchemy. It is best read just after
re-reading Peter M.'s Ifmenel translation (in Wednesday's Daily).
Here goes:
Waltom the Pedantic's response:
Translator's note: Waltom was an Lhankor Mhy sage from Nochet who
specializes in alchemical historiography. He was deeply offended by
Ifmenel's theories, at least partly because the underlying cosmology
was not theistic, and tended to present his own arguments largely as
counterblasts to other theories.
As is well documented in sources too numerous to mention, the metals
are the bones of dead gods. The most ancient artifacts of the world
are universally not metal, but constructed out of wood or stone.
[Translator's note: this is, of course, a bald-faced lie.] Naturally,
before Death entered the world, no dead gods and hence no metal was
available for such constructions.
The well-known scholar Ifmenel of Valsburg correctly
elucidated the existence of only five basic metals, but he
erroneously attributed this to the influence of the five elements.
The metals are metals. Elements are elements. [Translator's note:
presumably, however, the metals are _made_ up of the elements, like
everything else in the cosmos.] My own experiments have demonstrated
that all sub-metals are simply alloys -- alloys of metals with one
another, resulting in something new. In the same manner, the gods
intermingled their seed one with another, birthing unlike any that
had gone before. What is more different from Earth and Sky than Air?
Yet Air was fathered by the former two.
The five basic metals are Lead, Gold, Copper, Quicksilver,
and Tin. The derivative metals, which I have termed "sub-metals" are
created by such admixture, and affected by elemental dominance. I
will now proceed to explicate each of Ifmenel's famous experiments,
and in the process both demolish his theories and demonstrate the
true nature of alchemical reactions.
Ifmenel's first experiment: "I purchased some gold artifacts
from a merchant ... and placed them in a barrel of water. The
barrel was then placed in a dark cellar and left to stand for a year.
At the end of the year, the barrel was opened and the articles had
acquired a fine silvery sheen. Magical analysis showed that this
residue was in fact tin." Such is Ifmenel's report. Now, as is well
known, Air is dominant over Water. Hence, a small trace of tin is
present in any supply of water. Because of the natural enmity of the
gold (the sky-metal) to the tin, the tiny bit of tin in the water was
attracted to the gold, and plastered itself over it. This is easily
proven by the experiment of repeatedly placing multiple bars of gold
into a pool of water -- by natural law, this should result in
increasingly thinner coats of tin on the gold until at last we have
used all the tin up, and no further reaction can be observed. Alas,
this experiment does, in fact, not work in this matter, and the coats
of tin remain as thick on the tenth ingot as the first. Of course,
this is easily explained by the fact that as the tin is used up from
the water, new tin infuses inward from the air (its natural source).
If we had some way to construct an absolutely airtight container, I'm
sure the experiment would work properly.
Ifmenel's second experiment: "I stood a golden javelin into
the crest of a hill and forbade any to approach it until the year
(and several thunderstorms) were up. When I
retrieved the Javelin, it had the appearance of silver. After
melting it down, I discovered I had made electrum." As is well-known,
the easiest way to create electrum is by alloying gold and silver,
though it _is_ known to appear naturally in rare circumstances. I
refer of course to the well-known electrum mines of Slon. As further
proof, a solid electrum bone rests in the Museum of Arcane Lore
within our own city of Nochet -- what better evidence that electrum
is a "real" metal. Now, silver is, of course, the result of gold's
deterioration under the influences of air. This is why silver is
sometimes considered to be the Metal of Air, even though the air gods
themselves do not have silver bones. The gold left atop the crest,
being struck by lightning, being afflicted by the tempests, and also
being so high up so that mitigating influences were lessened,
naturally was afflicted by the air's hostility and became turning
into silver. Pedants might wonder why the air does not simply coat
the gold with tin, as happens underwater, but this is easily
explicated. Under the water, the gold cannot receive any assistance
from the Sky or light -- it is cut off, as it were, from its native
substance, surrounded by its dominant element. Hence, the tin was
able to coat the gold. But in the open, the gold is as powerful as
the air, and no addition of tin is possible. Instead, you see that
the gold began an inexorable change towards silver. This explains the
origin of silver.
Bronze: upon this rock, all Ifmenel's house of cards tumbles
down. Bronze is the metal of Air -- it was Humakt's metal back when
he was still Umath's son. Yet it is clearly an alloy of copper and
tin. This is easily enough explained. When Umath was born, the new
metal tin was of course in his bones. So, too, were the metals of
gold and copper, from his parents, and Umath's bones were an alloy of
tin, gold, and copper. When Orlanth slew Yelm, he also symbolically
severed the connection of Air and Sky (just as when Humakt used Death
to disown himself from his relatives). This removed the trace of gold
from the storm gods, and left them only with copper and tin -- i.e.,
bronze. It is likely that, as Earth dominates Air, it is impossible
to remove the copper "taint" from the air gods' bones. Who'd want to
anyway?
But then what was this ancient, presumably lost, alloy of
copper, tin, and gold? I have done an experiment in an attempt to
elucidate this, and the results were amazing. I mixed the three
metals, alloying them as perfectly as I could. I then cooled the
ingot, a sallow metal which I nicknamed "gronze", scraped off filings
and placed them on a slab of stone. Atop the stone, I built a fire,
and did my best to keep air away from the layer of filings beneath.
In this way, I hoped to simulate the original coition between Sky and
Earth which produced Air. After many hours, I put out the fire and
examined the filings -- they had changed! They were now reddish,
crumbly, and had lost all resemblance to true metal. They seemed like
some kind of mineral deposit instead. I was puzzled for a while, then
I brilliantly tried feeding them to a trollkin, who died. Clearly
these filings were iron rust! "Gronze", when properly prepared, forms
into rust! No doubt if I was able to perform the experiment with
proper equipment, and without any air whatsoever, I would have
produced true iron! No doubt some variant on this system is what the
dwarfs use. [Translator's note: though dwarfs are known to have read
Waltom's notes, none ever saw fit to comment on them, steal them, or
murder Waltom. Which is, in itself, a sort of comment on their
potential accuracy, or lack of same.] Hence it is clear that Umath's
original bones were iron. This also explains how Humakt's sword is
iron, how Storm Bull's horns are iron, and why iron is so common
amongst the various air gods.
---------------------