From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 28 Sep 1994, part 2
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From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: Pamalt/Treneg?
Message-ID: <01HHMETXLP1E8WZ0MF@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 28 Sep 94 10:00:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6386
Sandy
=====
> Despite (or maybe _because_ of) the fact that much of the
>inverse parallelism re: Pamalt/Genert was not pre-planned but rather
>just grew as the stories were written, I'm going to take on Peter and
>see who comes out on top.
Spoiling for a fight, eh?
>>>Genert was among the first to fight, Pamalt was among the last.
>>Hardly any inverse parallelism here. Chaos came from the north
>>where ragnaglar's lands were.
> Peter, you missed the point here. When Chaos came to Genert's
>land, he immediately mustered to battle it. When Chaos came to
>Pamalt's land, he did not go until the very end, letting other gods
>strive against Chaos first.
Genert's lands include the Whole of Genertela. Genert didn't fight
until some time after the Battle of Storm Fall which is when the Devil
first invaded Genertela. Genert didn't actually fight the Devil until
the Devil reached the Garden. So Genert let the Storm Gods first, which
contradicts the point you're making.
Unless of course, this means that Genertela by and large did not
really have anything to do with Genert, but the God Learners thought
he ruled the whole place.
>>>Genert stood alone. Pamalt used cooperation and leaned on his
>>>friends.
[gumpf about Pamalt's necklace deleted...]
>This is an extremely important part of the
>Pamalt myth, and there is really nothing like it in Genert's saga.
>Yamsur, Tada, Orani, Genert all fought and died alone, though not far
>off other folk were also fighting and dying alone. Pamalt's battles
>were fought as a group, not many separate individual hopeless
>struggles.
Pardon me, but Pamalt fought Vovisibor many times (albeit in a
meeting contest) and was forced to learn the lessons of cooperation
long before chaos armies invaded his land. You mention Genert's saga
as it were a written thing so I cannot really comment on the flaws
exhibited by Genert in his fight.
Also you mention Artmal fighting by himself. I was under the
impression that he was maimed by Jraktal's minions long before the
Grey Age, yet he seems to have recovered sufficiently to try and
take on Moorgarki.
BTW Pamalt cheats in his contests with Vovisibor, excusing it on
the grounds that 'he was doing it too'. Furthermore Vovisibor
could also be said to have won the Pamalt's challenge 'to make something
new as I can'. This is of course the traditional Genertelan Practice of
bashing his brains in. Filth Which Walks is obviously the Pamaltelean
equivalent of Sour Grapes.
>>For the Cities, not all are Fonritian. The Umathelans and the Elf
>>Coasts are urbanized and both seem very 'good' the last time I
>>looked.
> Umathela and Elf Coasts are considered bad by the Doraddi,
>though the Elf Coasts at least have the excuse that they have no
>choice but to live in cities.
And the Goblin marshes would also be considered bad by the Doraddi.
This is really only a subjective opinion by the Doraddi rather than
an objective inverse parallelism...
>>The Sodal Marsh is not a Hellhole.
> In any case, Peter, you can't pick out individual examples
>and expect thus to disprove a general tendency.
But it is a correct application of the proverb 'The exception proves
the rule'. 'Prove' as in 'to test'
>While certain
>Genertelan Marshes may not be chaotic, there is absolutely a general
>trend in this direction, whereas in general the Pamaltelan marshes
>(while hostile to humans) are _not_ chaotic.
But you can say wastelands in both are chaos cursed cf the Nargan and the
wastelands.
>>>Genert: Human Conflict Pamalt: Human Cooperation
>>hmm. The Arbennan and the Kresh are friends? Fonritian slaver
>>expeditions into Jolar are benign? The exigers are peaceful? The
>>Six Legged Empire was well recieved? Kralorela and Teshnos war with
>>each other?
>The difference between Pamaltela and Genertela is one of kind,
>not degree.
Agreed, but I would say the reason for this difference is that
Inland Pamaltela does not really have the magic to implement a
night of horrors. This is in a large way due to that there was
no large scale war of civilizations (West vs Orlanth vs Dara Happa)
as characterised Genertela in the First Age.
The only comparable struggle is Garangordos war against the Blues
(and Jraktali) of Fonrit (circa 450 IMO) and then later the Eight
season wars. Fonrit does have the capability but is too prone to
internal squabbling to really built up a monlithic state that would
scare the crap out of everyone.
This is not to say that they won't learn for Harrek's coming!
>>The trolls of the Tarmo raid the Elves of Enkloso and they're just
>>as Pamaltelean as the Muri. The Muri also hunt yellow elves, they
>>were forced not to do this only during the lifetime of Errinoru.
>The trolls
>and elves of the Tarmo and Enkloso are tainted heavily by Umathelan
>reality, and are more like Genertela in customs and habits than they
>are like Pamaltela.
The Southern Trolls left the Spike and never came into contact with
the North. The Umathelan reality was caused by Moorgarki when she
maimed Artmal. This proves it to be other than a piece of Genertela
in Pamaltela. After all the first influence of Genertela there are
the GL's in the sixth century. There is very little contact with
the northern elves except for Errinoru who IMO travelled clockwise.
The Elves of Enkloso also handle Ironseed thus proving a Errinoruan
influence.
BTW what is Ironseed? I've an impression that it's a type of klanth
but with iron instead of obsidian. And no I'm not thinking draconic
influences.
> Not all the Doraddi have metal spears, of course. You'll see
>lots of bone and stone spear-tips in Tarien, and bamboo spears are
>pretty common in Kothar and Zamokil. Many of the metal spearheads in
>Jolar are made by exigers in the mountains or else from Fonritian
>traders. In essence, the Doraddi generally get their metal spearheads
>from the same place that Amerinds got their metal tomahawks --
>foreign traders.
Do the Maslo work Jade? I'm a bit curious. Given that they hang
around in catamarans and there seems to be no obvious analogue to the
polynesians otherwise.
>>My belief is that the Emperor of the Green Age was Molandro
> I cannot concur. Molandro, Keeper of the Earth, was not a
>ruler, but a guardian entity. I don't think he ever ruled anything.
Okay. Make that Big Man (Ancient Sumerian Euphemism). Everybody defers
to him but he doesn't have a system of goverment to discharge obligations
of power as Yelm brought along. {God Learner Political Scientists - the
worst of both worlds]
>>Lodril beats the other god to a bloody pulp and nothing survives on
>>Pamaltela save for the Promalti, the men of fire, who are the first
>>recorded life form from what I have heard.
> Where did you get _this_ from? In Pamaltela, Lodril is the
>_bringer_ of life, not the _destroyer_. And they should know. In any
>case, who says the Promalti are the first recorded life form?
Bringer of Life in the Long term in the sense that Volacnic ash and
ejecta has undoubtedly hazardous short term benefits whilst 'fresh'.
As for being bringer of life, this does not rule out the extraordinary
violence that accompanies this god.
As for the Promalt being the first recorded life form I was lead to
beleive this by some Aeolian philosopher...
>>Pamalt of unknown origins comes afterwards. pamaltela is so called
>>because the GL's thought he was the Southern equivalent of Genert
>>and they didn't know the name of the one who was before.
> This I agree with. THough there may not have been a "one who
>was before", when the GL arrived Pamalt was obviously the Earth-King,
>and so the GL assumption was obvious.
Or perhaps the "One who was Before" was the "God with No Name".
--Peter Metcalfe
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From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Porthomeka and the Merchant Princes of Nochet
Message-ID: <01HHMC5DSE469N6OEB@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 28 Sep 94 06:49:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6387
G'day all,
_____________________________________________
Porthomeka and the Merchant Princes of Nochet
Martin Crim gets the ball rolling again:
>I've got one: Porthomeka. On page 23 of the RQ Companion, it is
>stated that "history has left Caladraland holding the lowland
>area called Porthomeka, a place of foreign culture." This is the
>sum total of published information. I think it's populated with
>Westerners who came with Arkat and settled there when Arkat
>betrayed them. They were mostly men, so they took native brides
>who brought in a rich strain of Esrolian (or just possibly
>Caladralander) culture.
I think Martin has hit the nail right on the head when he suggests the
Porthomekans are descendants of Westerners.
I have just completed a lengthy scenario which features the other
Westerners in the region: the Merchant Princes of Nochet - the du Tumerines
of Nolos and the Capratis of Pasos - who share between them a virtual
stranglehold on ocean-going trade, and squabble over various monopolies
granted by the Matriarch.
I really like the idea that the people of Porthomeka are also of
Western origin, as they can exploit these old cultural ties in their
trade wars with the Capratis and du Tumerines.
Here's some more detail, to add to what Martin has began:
The paramount city of Porthomeka is Rhigos, second only to Nochet in
size and prestige.
No doubt if it was settled by Westerners, it also has its own version of
the Malkioni Church and resident Ecclesiarch (another PC for "How
the West Was One" David?). Rhigos is undertaking a program to expand its
deep-water docks, which will be able to berth the sea-going vessels of
the West. What is more, Rhigos promises that this new harbour will be a
"free port", where all vessels may berth regardless of commercial
affiliation.
Despite the promise of the new harbour, Rhigos's future expansion into
Nochet's market is blocked by political factors, though with the
increasing disorder in the Holy Country, these too are being diminished.
Rhigos is unlucky in that it lies on the Porthomekan side of the Malthin
River; ergo, all produce from the Esrolian side must pay customs duty
before it crosses over.
This is a relatively new innovation, enacted by the Matriarch at the
behest of the merchant-princes of Nochet.
Also, the boatmen who ply the Malthin-Whitefall and Gorphing rivers,
which terminate at Rhigos, have for centuries by-passed this city,
and made their way along the coast to the Port of Nochet. The reason
for doin
g so is simple: they can get a better price for their cargoes at
Nochet, where merchants come from all over the world to trade.
Nevertheless, Rhigos is emerging as a real threat to the Capratis and
the du Tumerines, and I can see the beginnings of another scenario
or two coming out of this...
For your interest, here's the low-down on the Capratis and du Tumerine
families, a sneak preview from the forthcoming article in TALES #13,
the malkioni Special (assuming Dave can squeeze it in):
Merchant Princes
The metropolis of Nochet is the greatest city of the many that ring
the Mirrorsea Bay of Kethaela, and its port, the busiest and most
prosperous. Following the opening of the seas in 1581, Nochet has
become the crucial terminus of the lucrative shipping route that
runs from Seshnela, far to the west. Two Merchant Prince
families - the du Tumerines of Nolos and the Capratis of Pasos - share
between them a virtual stranglehold on ocean-going trade, and squabble
over various monopolies granted by the Matriarch of the city. Although
both merchant families belong to the Rokari sect of Malkionism, they are
often bitter rivals and live in separate walled compounds, cut off from
the rest of the city and with their own governments (see side box).
The Capratis interest in Nochet and the lands around are strictly
commercial, whereas the du Tumerines use their trading interests to
promote a long-term campaign of empire-building. While Bishop
Vancelain du Tumerine has made some converts in the city (including,
it is rumoured, one of the daughters of the matriarch), this campaign
has been mostly unsuccessful.
Just a few years ago future prospects were excellent, after the Rokari
mercenary and adventurer Sir Richard the Tigerhearted seized the throne
of Heortland in the name of the Rokari Church, after the death of its
king without an heir. Vancelain became the new Bishop of Malkonwal
(as Heortl
and was re-named), and a concerted campaign began to convert
the populace. Barely three years later though (1620) the Lunar Empire
invaded Heortland, King Richard was captured, his army was destroyed
or scattered, and the Rokari Church was forced to retire back to
Nochet.
The relationship between the Capratis and the du Tumerines is not unlike
the rivalry between Venice and Genoa in the late Middle Ages. Neither
side is willing to become overtly hostile yet, as their home states,
Nolos and Pasos, are currently on amicable terms, united against the
King of Seshnela.
CAPRATIS
At present (c.1623), the Capratis are in the ascendant, controlling the
wharves on the city side of the river, and owning the monopoly on all
sea-borne grain (except that going to Karse). They live in the Alata
compound, which lies squeezed between their docks and the great walls
of the city. Although with the rise of the Capratis' commercial
fortunes the compound is critically short on space, Alata is within
strategic reach of the matriarch and the city markets. Alata is
ruled by a council of elders from the Lord caste, whose traditional
leader is called the *Don*. At this time however, the leader is
the *Donna* , young widow of the old Don and an acknowledged bastard
of the Duke of Pasos. This has infuriated the Rokari Bishop, but the
Donna has found herself an ally in the Matriarch.
The Capratis are typified as hard-headed straight talkers, with little
interest in spiritual affairs and some decidedly liberal attitudes for
Rokari.
DU TUMERINES
Across the river, the Du Tumerines have their wharves. They have been
trading in Nochet longer than the Capratis, and once held the license to
Alata and the grain monopoly. They were outbid for it by the Capratis'
about 20 years ago, and were forced to move across-river. The suburb
they established there is known as Tumerwal. Tumerwal is considerably
larger
and more comfortable than Alata, and is building a fine Western-
inspired Cathedral for the Bishop. Nevertheless, even the du Tumerines
have to admit that the locus of almost all trading activity in the city
still takes place over the river at the markets by Alata. It grates the
du Tumerines to have lost the grain monopoly, but since then they have
managed to win a number of smaller concessions including a monopoly on
all trade from Longsi Land and the license to export the famous
Esrolian greenware pottery. Tumerwal is ruled by the patriarch of the
family, Alabart du Tumerine, in concert with his Bishop (and nephew),
Vancelain.
The Rokari see of Nochet was created at the instigation of the du
Tumerines shortly after losing the grain monopoly. The Bishop
resides in Tumerwal, and the holder of this post has always been a
du Tumerine. As they are members of the Rokari faith too, the
Bishop claims spiritual sway over the Capratis.
Du Tumerines are characteristically arrogant and overbearing, but
sincerely religious. Their brand of Rokarism has an evangelistic
flavour which the more worldly Capratis find somewhat
repellent.
__________
You'll have to wait for the rest in Tales #13! In the scenario, the
player characters get a chance to interact with Malkioni of various
flavours: some liberal and some very conservative Rokari (the Capratis'
and du Tumerines respectively), several Henotheists of various
persuasions, an ex-Aolian and a Black Arkati! Hey, it's even got a duck
too!) However, because the scenario takes place in the Holy Country,
player characters from a wide range of backgrounds are able to participate.
Who's got some ideas for the Malkioni Church of Porthomeka? I would guess
that they are very anti-Arkat, and so not on good terms with the
Shadowlanders. However, as they are part of Caladraland, they might
have incoporated some aspects of their religious practises too.
Cheers
MOB
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