Bell Digest v941001p2

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From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Sandy agrees on Pamalt and others
Date: 30 Sep 94 20:23:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6427

Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 6415

> Joerg B. on his hobbyhorse about Pamalt not being an Earth god.

According to Genertelan definition.

>>By this rationalizing, Orlanth is the male ruling earth god of most  
>>of Genertela:
> 	Yeah. So? You think he's not?

Glad to find you agreeing!

> You think that the Earth  
> Goddess priestesses don't think of him as a relative? You think they  
> don't have special calls on his prowess not available to anyone else?  

I think they do. I'm just not certain how these look like. To expand on 
Davd Dunham's Land Goddess summary, the Orlanth Rex cult seems to have 
filled part of these functions in a form acceptable to the male 
dominated Orlanthi. Other functions (like the Illaro dynasty king 
sacrifice) seem to remain in the hands of the earth priestesses.

> I say that absolutely Orlanth takes the place of the male ruling  
> Earth god of that minor fraction of Genertela in which he is  
> recognized as King of the Gods. 

i.e. Genertela outside Tanisor, Loskalm, Teshnos, Kralorela and the 
Lunar Heartlands. Not that King of Gods must have much meaning in 
all of these areas...

> 	But Orlanth's position is subverted to some extent by that  
> fact that, by blood, he is a Storm God, and owes his brothers and  
> father loyalty. And additionally he has the Lightbringers, to whom  
> his relationship is that of blood-brother or best friend or  
> something. But Pamalt is blood-relative _only_ to the Earth gods,  

Well, Cronisper seems to be his father or so (not that that mattered 
too much among the Doraddi), and could be called a sky god.

I think the old concept of the Burtae (deities of mixed elemental 
ancestry) is pretty much out of date, except among die-hard God 
Learners. However, these were the ones who made the parallel, and 
they might have seen the parallels between the ancestry of Pamalt and 
Umath or Orlanth.

> Okay, technically he's just an in-law, but the stronger Pamaltelan  
> rules for in-laws, and the lack of any important Pamalt  
> blood-relatives causes Pamalt's wife and mother-in-law to fill the  
> place of same. In essence, Aleshmara and Faranar are as important to  
> Pamalt as Storm Bull and Ernalda are to Orlanth, but Aleshmara and  
> Faranar are unified in purpose, and Orlanth's relatives are not.  

The lack of any important Pamalt blood-relative: Any idea what 
caused this? Did his blood-kin perish (Pamaltela has as great a 
share of dead gods as has Genertela, it seems, and the Old Gods are 
specially listed in the Prosopaedia)?

If applying linguistics can deduce a connection or two for pre-KoS 
writings, then Pamalt seems very Fire/Sky connected: the closest fit 
I can think of is Primolt, also spelled Promalt, the other name for 

(Yes, I try to figure Pamalt out as an outsider, the Doraddi mindset 
escapes me somewhat.)

> Orlanth's mythos is filled with times he is forced to choose between  
> responsibilities, to act the King. Pamalt's mythos is filled with  
> opportunities for cooperation, making allies not enemies. They are  
> quite different. 

Orlanth's myths are more complex in that they unite all kind of 
conflicting notions - making friends and making foes, cooperating 
with one's kin and fighting it, etc. If Pamalt, as you say, lacks 
these myths of conflict, is this because he is less a composite deity, 
because his myth is of recent origin only, or because Pamalt's myths 
were less in the focus of the authors compared to the "more interesting" 
Genertelan myth?

>>Seriously, while I can accept that Pamalt has strong earth ties, he 
>>isn't _of_the_Earth_ as is Genert.
> 	The differences are largely technical. I doubt any Pamaltelan  
> shaman would consider Pamalt to not be a "true" Earth deity. 

Well, the Pamaltelans seem less obsessed with the elemental nature of 
things than the central Genertelans. Thus, being of the Earth means 
less in Pamaltela than in Genertela.

> This presents yet another inverse  
> parallel between Genert and Pamalt -- Genert started out powerful and  
> mighty -- born to the purple, as it were. Pamalt was unimportant  
> until he was able to prove himself.

This, and losing the first contest, reminds me strongly of Orlanth's 
rise to supremacy. Orlanth's myths are more extreme, but otherwise 
Pamalt's efforts remind me of Orlanth's.

> In fact, the gods who were in Pamalt's Necklace seem  
> to have gone to the meeting with Vovisibor apparently NOT ready to  
> fight, but were planning to negotiate a deal. 

A bit like Stormfall or the battle at Castle Blue, where the 
established gods went and fought fairly (the Genertelan equivalent for 
negotiations ), and expected their opponents to do the same.

>>Well, the Orlanthi say that Yelm was meant to be a guardian only,  
>>too, but that he usurped a sovereignty not his to take, and that  
>>this caused  the world to be almost destroyed.
> 	In the first place, I think this is an inaccurate portrayal  
> of the Orlanthi POV. In the second place, whether Yelm was _meant_ to  
> be a guardian or not, he wasn't one. He acted as the Emperor, rightly  
> or wrongly. Molandro did not. 

Well, do you have more info about Molandro? I saw his name only twice, 
first in the three contests of Yelm, then in the Pamalt write-up his 
stomach is used as an artifact.

>	Can't a god rule over the Earth even if he doesn't have what  
> the God-Learners call the "Earth" Rune? 

Well, if Orlanth can, as you said above, then I have no problems at 
all with Pamalt, who has visible Earth ties in his divine spells. 
And Lodril in most of his forms is as much an Earth deity as a fire 

However, this opens another question I've been harbouring for some 
time: How is the native Pamaltelan divine magic different from the 
Genertelan? Cults of Terror calls the native Pamaltelan philosophy 
Naturalist, similar to the Hsunchen. (IMO this is just a GL way to 
say "We don't really understand, so let's group these.) Do the Doraddi 
perform theist worship, or rather something similar to Praxian or 
Hsunchen spirit cults? Were their ways of worship different before the 
Six-legged Empire came, like it is said about the Praxians before the 
advent of the Pure Horse Tribe?

--  Joerg Baumgartner