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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 04 Oct 1994, part 2
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Kitori
Message-ID: <9410040257.AA18784@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 02:57:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6458
David Cake on the origins of the Kitori:
> I think that they started as two separate tribes allied, and the first
> ceremonial marriage made them a single tribe "officially".
I think merger between tribes is quite unusual, even among all-same-species
sorts. More usual is tribes to be formed by enlargement of a clan, or
allying of neighbouring clans, grow by absorbing other clans, and finally
split into two or more successor tribes, or disintegrate entirely, possibly
starting off the whole cycle over again. I suspect that the Kitori started
off as an all troll grouping, perhaps a single clan, and has grown into a
tribe by "adopting" human clans.
> I definately disagree that humans are allowed to join KL, except in
> the normal (excruciating) way.
I'm not sure either way, but I feel that having all the trolls in a troll-
only cult would defeat the purpose of (attempted) tribal unity. If there
were an explicit recognition that the two races were irrevocably distinct,
and had in fact, no common founder, it would lead to something of an (ahem)
uz and them attitude, and wouldn't be conducive to the maintanance of a
single unfied tribe. Maybe Sandy's closer when he says they're all (both
troll and human) Argan Argar nutters. Or maybe we should just (cop out by)
say(ing) that they all worship Kitor, a ancestral/founder deity with lots
of AA-like surface darkness magic.
> I think that blurring the species
> distinction like that would be heresy to the KL cult, and that is not a
> pleasant thing to contemplate.
Of course it is. Whatever else the Kitori are, I'm sure they're heretics.
(A faint Eric Idle-like voice, off: "Burn 'em!")
> >I'd say they were "Stygians", in that they have significant resources
> >of sorcery knowledge, in the context of theist worship. (Not in the sense
> >of being an IG worship heresy.) Though more will know rune magic than
> >sorcery, I feel.
> We feel that most Kitori are divine users, but there exists a
> substantial minority of Arkati, a large proportion of whom (how large we
> disagree on) are specialist sorcerers. Ie compared to a Western culture,
> there are very few 'low sorcery' users, but a reasonable amount of
> professional sorcerers.
I think we're (all?) agreeing on the substance, though we may be disagreeing
about terminology. I think they recognise Arkat as a worshippable being,
so in that sense the culture is "Arkati". They'd regard a ("specialised")
sorcerer much as they would regard a priestess or a shaman, that is, as an
important and dedicated co-religionist. I entirely agree about the low/high
sorcery prevalence.
> These sorcerers are Arkati, and are all at least
> initiates in a troll divine cult as well.
Presumably they worship (and join the "cult" of) Arkat, so they're Arkati
in that sense, yes. Only initiates, I'd have said, given the prohibition
on even, say, KL priestesses being sorcerers.
> I think that the House of Black Arkat is not within Kitori lands
> (because if it was trolls would be admitted).
I'm inclined to take the opposite view that the note of BA is confused, and
meant to say "mainly" humans. Shameless, I know.
> I suspect that the House of
> Black Arkat is a hold over from when trolls ruled Kethaela, or maybe from
> Arkats time there, and it contains only humans because it is not near
> trolls - ie not near the Troll Woods like the Kitori, and not bordering the
> Shadow Plateau.
Begging the obvious question: where is it then? Next to the trolls is the
obvious place to have either voilently pro- or anti- troll cults.
Alex.
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Doraddi vs. Oralnthi
Message-ID: <9410040304.AA18791@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 03:04:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6459
David Cake replying to innumerable people:
> First, a little cultural specifics - family means different things to the
> Doraddi than to the Orlanthi. To the Orlanthi, 'marrying into the family'
> is a weak concept - the children are not necessarily of that tribe, you may
> share no property, etc. To the Doraddi it is a strong concept - all that is
> yours is theirs, you always change tribes if you marry into it, etc.
There's the minor detail that most marriages are in-tribe, but out-of-clan,
and that lineage is (normally) through different parents between the two
cultures, but the situations seem fairly comparable otherwise. The Orlanthi
situation is complicated by the different forms of marriage, but in the vast
majority of cases, where a person of either sex "marries into" a clan, their
children (of that marriage) are members of it.
> Kinship is a more important and more complicated concept in Pamaltela.
I think you just argued that "kithship" was more important, not kinship
per se. (Which you later disagree with, to boot.)
[Orlanth is:]
> Son of a minor Earth goddess, and one of the many husbands of Ernalda.
For most of the Barbarian Belt, he's _the_ husband of Ernalda. Esrolia
is exceptional, if not unique.
Alex.
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Black Arkat
Message-ID: <9410040305.AA18798@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 03:05:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6460
Joerg seeks to outflank Martin C., on Black Arkati "sorcery"
> > But the Arkati think of them as miracles from their god,
> > not as manipulations of natural laws.
by:
> So do a vast majority of the Malkioni, IMO.
I disagree with you both, though more so with Joerg. As Sandy pointed out
when he accused me (erroneously) of making the same (erroneous) point, most
sensible Wizards know that Evil Sorcerors can cast exactly the same spells
as they do. They'll Burn (Freeze?) in Hell for it, mind you.
The Black (and trollish) Arkati _worship_ in the divine manner, I think,
but don't think of their sorcery spells as divine effects. After all,
they know where and how he got them, and that non-divine-magic things like
intellectual effort are needed to study them.
> If anybody wants a fire-based henotheist church, I might write one up
> - it would be the logical next step after the Aeolians...
There's an obvious place for something like this, but suggesting it might
provoke all-out Nick/Joerg warfare.
> Free INT 8 is out!
Any noos on the threatened english translations? I'm only prepared to
resort to word-for-word translations with D->E dictionaries in hand for
extreme cases, like paragraphs mentioning me by name. ;-)
Read German 1%-ly,
Alex.
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Arkati and Illumination.
Message-ID: <9410040309.AA18808@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 03:09:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6461
Dag Olausson and Jonas Schiott:
> The widespread acceptance of these definitions [of the Dark Side and
> the Light Side of Nysalor/Illumination, in moral terms] is partly due
> to the efforts of the Arkat cult (who regard themselves as the only
> genuine Light Siders, any other Riddler must be Dark)
This assumes that the Arkati regard themselves as Illuminates, which
Greg assures (nay, chastens) me is not the case. They consider
themselves to me opposed to Illimination and Nysalor worship in all
forms. I suspect that the above is, however, true without modification
for some Lunar schools of Illumination. Also, third age cults of (some
aspects of) Arkat may bear little resemblance to Arkat cult(s) of the
Dark Empire. As to whether any of them displays any of the "symptoms"
of Illumination depends very much on which group
we're speaking of. I doubt the Kitori/Black Arkati do, for example.
> partly the
> result of an inclination among Gloranthans to fall back on dualism
> whenever in doubt.
Now yer talkin'.
> But in fact, many Illuminates don't fit either mold:
Given the freedom Illuminates have to act however they wish, neither the
"Light" or "Dark" side is so much as mould, as a handy label.
Alex.
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From: raphael@research.canon.oz.au (Andrew Raphael)
Subject: Light Sons in Drag
Message-ID: <199410040337.AA28648@mama.research.canon.oz.au>
Date: 4 Oct 94 23:37:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6462
MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
>Despite creating her long ago, David Hall and Nick Brooke have
>been trying to convince me of late that Vega is in fact, really
>a *Light Son* (seen "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert", anyone?).
>Of course, that cannot be true because Light Sons are forbidden
>to disguise themselves as women, (see Yelmalio cult write-up in
>CoP or SC) but then, why have such a weird rule if there wasn't
>such a problem in the first place?
Come on. You think Solanthos, that old prude, would let Vega get away with
that? He's worse than Fred Nile (A NSW preacher/politician). She'd have
been exposed long ago. On the other hand, those rumours in Sun County may
have some basis, and Solanthos just doesn't like heterosexuals, using the
letter of the law against them, but turns a blind eye on Vega.
Disguising yourself as a woman is a broad crime. :-) Having your ears
pierced instead of wearing arm rings (did I get that the right way around?)
or becoming a shaman (wise women, not wise men).
I can see some of Sydney's RuneQuest community getting a Sun County
float together for Mardi Gras. All those sculpted breatplates & bare
legs. They could get Glorantha on live national television, & news
bulletins around the globe! ;-)
--
Andrew Raphael
"She's probably not what she seems, though she tries"
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From: guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org
Subject: RUNEQUEST DAI
Message-ID: <9410032351.0XIOJ02@chrysalis.org>
Date: 3 Oct 94 22:51:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6463
Just in case anybody's interested, Sandy's got some GREAT ideas about
Kralorelan magic (NOT sorcery), and also about the East Isles. We're
currently in Kralorela in his campaign, and he's tantalized us with
tidbits. Pester him so's he'll post it here.
Sandy, is the magic in Pamaltela different too? (We might go there
too.)
Guy
aka Fido Two-Big-Clubs (DON'T DRINK THE WHITE STUFF!)
* RM
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: A load of Bull, etc.
Message-ID: <9410040540.AA19040@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 05:40:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6464
Nick Brooke on Joerg's suggestion that Yelm was a guardian entity in his
original (evidently somewhat sloppily drafted) end-user-spec:
> It's an outgrowth of Joerg's own Aeolian theories. I think he'd agree it's
> not the *normal* Orlanthi POV, but I'm unsure if he's trying to pull a fast
> one by mentioning it here. It's possible Joerg has just forgotten where it
> came from: it can happen to us creative types.
Another place it comes from, of course, is the Entesokiad, but there's no
reason to suppose the Orlanthi would have picked up on this, other than the
fact that it makes good propaganda.
> What does "Urox" say to you that "Storm Bull" doesn't, you lanky Scots git?
It tells me that: we're not in Prax (anymore, Toto); that the gods may
speak Tradetalk, but only at 20% or so; and that I'd just hoist you
with your own (and my, admittedly) anti-GLish petard.
Oops, hang on, I need an insult: eh, you mesomorphic Sassenach oaf?
> Obviously Sartar, being within spitting distance of the Block and regularly
> raided by Praxian types, is almost certainly within Storm-Bull-as-described
> territory.
Naaaaah. I'm sure they share aforesaid two mythic events, at least, though.
However, I don't take it as read that they put the same importance on them,
or have entirely symmetric interpretations of them, much less other cultic
fripperies.
> You'd get some local myths (like "How Orlanth Tamed Storm Bull")
> unlikely to be known or told in Prax, but the Big Myth of the Block could
> stay the same.
I'd imagine that the Block myth is still present, but (at least relatively)
less important, as Not Invented Here and the Praxians being such a bunch of
(smelly) arseholes. Possibly still the most important single myths, though.
> If Ralios is "an extreme case", what on earth are Fronelan Storm Bulls
> going to be like?
Fronela isn't really more extreme, Ralios is isolated enough from Dragon
Pass to be going on with. Depends if there's been wholesale change (on
either side) during the Ban.
> > Storm Walk mountain ... with a different spin
> What, counterclockwise? Talk about doubleplusungoodwise phrasing!
Talk about a doublepluspresumptious ellision cum rephrasing! Big Alex,
malreported...
> Also, I'm
> not sure whether that's primarily a Praxian or a Holy Country story -- as
> it's not mentioned in Nomad Gods but was developed for MoLaD, I'd suspect
> the latter.
Hendriki, surely. Of course, its position will almost certainly mean that
it's about as important to the Praxians, with the above caveats. By this
logic, the Sartarites, having lots of former Hendriki among them, may be
pretty big on the Stormwalk myth.
Scott Haney cautions against numbing the tastes buds at a Burns' Supper
too much:
> Yeah, well, you have to be very careful with that...I tried it, and I wound
> up proposing marriage later that evening!
A small price to pay. Remember the old Orlmarth proverb: "Marriage may be
hard, Varmandi haggis is even harder."
Alex.
---------------------
From: 100270.337@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Pocharngo's Grotto; Whinge About Geases
Message-ID: <941003215351_100270.337_BHL40-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 3 Oct 94 21:53:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6455
______
Klaus:
Have you ever played "Call of Cthulhu"? Treat Pocharngo's Grotto like a
really heavy cult site in that game and you should be fine. Scare the
players with sounds, smells, atmosphere, sightings of nasty things; then
terrify them with the Big One, and *let them escape*. You could have the
Zola Fel cultists rescue them spontaneously, or coincidentally, if needed:
I'm never troubled if powerful PC groups happen by to free prisoners of the
Trolls/Broos/bad guys. After all, later on, when you're playing at higher
levels, it'll be your players doing the rescuing (inadvertently or not).
And, moreover, the first rule of GMing is, "Gamemasters never cheat". It
ain't possible, as nobody sits in judgement over us. So the other exit
*didn't* have to be opened by Undines, if the alternative is butchering a
party and ruining the campaign you've been running for several months. Or
the tunnel they run away down is, by chance, the one that leads to the
surface. I know some purists will be shocked by this, but sometimes MGF =
MGI (that is, Maximum Game Fun requires Moderate Gamemaster Intervention).
There are things PCs were not meant to achieve unaided. Pocharngo's Grotto,
for newbies, is probably one of them. If they've told nobody where they're
going, and asked nobody for advice or help, I'd frankly give them Hell.
Just as I would if they wandered blindly into the Devil's Marsh, or chose
to attack the Lunar Army. What is RuneQuest all about, after all, if not
social roleplaying? But if their priests and politicians and leaders have
all warned them off and/or provided whatever backup you think appropriate,
I'd let them feel like Heroes, whatever they go on to do.
I hate killing campaigns and characters. So do the players. Ernalda says,
"There is always another way." Just bear that in mind, when they're running
for the exit...
________________
Peter W replied:
> May I presume that you include on the Yelmalio Geas table, in deference
> to certain Greek practices:
>
> 'Thou shalt not chase Junior Sun Dome Templars around the Yard'
Aha! This opens up an interesting area for speculation: as many here know,
religious and/or legal prohibitions are usually imposed (from on high or
down below) to stop normal people from doing things they'd otherwise be
quite happy to carry on doing. (Reading the Bible once you see this makes
the periodic religious reforms of the Kings far more interesting! Imagine
"the history of Sartar as written by extremist Humakti", rather than "the
history of Sartar". Good kings worship our god; bad kings, the others.).
RuneQuest's "Geas" tables are unusual in that while they do make it clear
what "pure" Humakti or Yelmalions will be like, no "minimum standard" is
imposed by them. So (one presumes) a Humakti without the "Never use poison"
geas would feel no moral qualms about doing so, and would not suffer for it
either tangibly (Spirit of Retribution, Excommunication, beaten up by his
colleagues) or in reputation ("Some folk call him Corwen the Poisoner, but
most of us don't hold that against him: only Ignar the Healthy, Flostak
Broo-Hunter and Bertha Rosycheeks in our Temple shun the use of poison, and
even *they* don't mind when their friends use it.")
So, if "Thou shalt not chase..." were to be made a Yelmalion Geas, the
*obvious implication* would be that most Sun Domers would be culturally
inclined to do so, and (moreover) that almost all were not prohibited by
ethical or legal or peer-pressuring considerations from pursuing their
inclinations, and that those who did were seen as rather odd: self-denying
and austere in their piety.
Apropos of which, I've sometimes wondered how to replace the rather unusual
"Geas" mechanism with something that "feels right" to me in this light:
Perhaps a mechanic that encourages players to act in accordance with as
many Geases as possible in order to reap maximum benefits from their
deity-of- choice. Making temple POW gains, or MP recovery, or something
else magical, somehow dependent on correct behaviour.
Or punishing lapses from "ideal" behaviour rather than forcing compliance
with limited aspects of it. (Like, any Yelmalion who got on well with a
Troll would suffer somehow for it; those who disdain and distrust them
would be 'neutral' in the cult: no reward, no penalty; one who always
challenges all Trolls on sight would get some kind of benefit).
Or linking Geases to Rune magic: only Humakti who never Lie (or who haven't
Lied for a season, or since the last Holy Day, or whatever) would be able
to cast Detect Truth; only Humakti who don't accept magical healing can
cast Sever Spirit; Truesword cannot be cast on a blade which has ever been
poisoned; that kind of thing.
Or making the whole thing more social/open, so that *most* Humakti try to
live by *all* the cult's Geases, even though only some of them would suffer
terrible punishments for breaking them.
I just think people are more likely to publicly renounce some generally-
accepted "sin" (and afterwards, pleasingly, receive some benefit for it)
than to select or have imposed a *random* penalty to receive a peculiar
benefit.
Currently, the system feels odd (to me). I'd certainly step up the level of
priestly involvement in the selection of Geases, to increase MGF. "In our
Temple, we NEVER speak on Freezeday." I'd incline to impose the prohibition
of my GM-ing choice (and present the benefit as a side-effect), rather than
keep the current minimaxing "choose whatever you want" system. But this may
just be that the rule is presented backwards to what I'd prefer: picking
your (divinely-granted) benefit and *therefore* suffering your (non-self-
imposed) restriction. Should the shoe instead be on the other foot?
Of course, the fact that *only* the randomly-imposed prohibitions etc. are
described as Geases adds to the strangeness; if you rewrote Chalana Arroy
(for example) to say that "all Healers must take a Geas to harm no living
being", the term would feel more natural when encountered in its Humakti
context. Or we could call the aberrant "geases" "Vows", or "cult duties",
or some such?
I just can't help thinking of RQ OT characters in the Cult of Yahweh being
allowed to pick and choose (or rolling 1D10 to discover?) which of the Ten
Commandments they'll have to follow...
And, furthermore: whoever gave Yelmalions their ludicrous armouring Geases
obviously thought as hard about the techniques of Hoplite and Phalangite
warfare as MOB did in his memorable passage on 2H Spear w/Shield in Sun
County.
"Sorry, sir: looks like I'll have to stay in the back rank. 'Never wear any
head protection', that's my geas..."
(Perhaps that one gets assigned to Light Sons' sons? Or to female Templars?
Or to folk like me who make suggestions like that?)
(Of course, the situation was far worse in 1st edition days! "Never use any
shield", forsooth! "Will all those who rolled a '57' assemble at the *left*
edge of the Phalanx...")
Sorry about that, it's just a whinge I felt I had to get off my chest.
Normal service will be resuming shortly.
====
Nick
====
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