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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 05 Oct 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6465: raphael = (Andrew Raphael)
- Re: Shaman resurrection
6466: niwe = (Nils Weinander)
- Matters diverse
6467: davidc = (David Cake)
- Kitori and Black Arkat
6468: davidc = (David Cake)
- TOTRM #12
6469: davidc = (David Cake)
- Shamans
6470: JARDINE = JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
- Non-divine Ressurrection
6471: jonas.schiott = (Jonas Schiott)
- Re: Arkati and Illumination
6472: watson = (Colin Watson)
- Re: Shaman and Sorcery Resurrections
6473: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 04 Oct 1994
6474: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Wizards v. Sorcerers
6475: 100102.3001 = (Peter J. Whitelaw)
- Son of Geas
6476: ddunham = (David Dunham)
- Orlanth Rex; swamps; Great Zimbabwe; geases
6477: jcw7 = (Chris Wehman)
- Dirkar the Betrothed
6478: mmorrison = (Michael C. Morrison 8-543-4706)
- CA/nonCA resurrexion; geases
6479: rowe = (Eric Rowe)
- The Real Truth (tm) about the Red Moon
---------------------
From: raphael@research.canon.oz.au (Andrew Raphael)
Subject: Re: Shaman resurrection
Message-ID: <199410040824.AA05165@mama.research.canon.oz.au>
Date: 5 Oct 94 04:24:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6465
dave_cordes@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (Dave Cordes) writes:
>This situation that we find ourselves in (permanent deaths) has led us to
>try some different options. What I want to know is if it is possible for
>a shaman to ressurect a dead character.
Since one of the primary myths of Daka Fal/Ancestor Worship is the
separation of the dead from the living, resurrection might be seen
as sacreligious.
Shamans don't have to make the distinction between the living & the dead
that theists or atheists do. Just because someone who was knowledgable,
skilled, or powerful is now dead doesn't mean they are inaccessible. They
can be summoned again, bound into a matrix, or allowed to possess someone,
bringing them "back to life".
For example, there's a shaman in Dorastor who specialises in summoning
the spirits of long-dead Dorastan humans, & putting them into the bodies
of greyskins. These greyskins no longer fear death, for the spirits
controlling them know that the shaman will simply summon them again.
Rather than trying to resurrect your companion, you should see to it
that she is sent to the spirit world with the proper ceremonies, and
that she can be called back if the need arises. "Alas, poor Yorick.
I knew him, Horatio."
>After this failed attempt we started discussing if my attempts would
>have been successful, if I could have gotten his ghost back to the
>material plain. Finally someone found this quote from the Magic Book
>page 28: "Only Divine Magic can bring back an adventurer from the
>dead, a capability which greatly encourages such characters to learn
>or convert to that approach to magic".
>Why? What is the difference between what I detailed here and the
>resurrection spell?
Because a spirit can't possess a dead body. Binding a spirit into a dead
body makes a zombie (well, it does in RQ3). Only the gods of healing can
make your body alive again & put your spirit into it. Shamans just aren't
powerful enough.
--
Andrew Raphael
"She's probably not what she seems, though she tries"
---------------------
From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Matters diverse
Message-ID: <9410040927.AA10665@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 4 Oct 94 11:27:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6466
Nils Weinander writing
Simon Lipscomb has a lot of sensible things to say about resurrection.
I totally agree that the availability is culturally conditioned. A minor
gripe only:
>Kralorela: Although they have some elements of Yelmic belief, I feel the
>Kralorelans are strongly influenced by dragonewt philosophy and so believe in
>reincarnation, into a higher state if they live a worthy life. Thus it would be
>wrong to resurrect someone as it would keep them in a lower position.
Kralorelans in good standing with society get _out of_ reincarnation. When
they die their spirits go to Vithela, where they await the death of the
current emperor. When the emperor passes on he collects the spirits and
departs with them to some unknown place, outside Gloranthan reach. Perhaps
some kind of draconic paradise.
_____
Wayne Gaudin:
>I would also like to post various scenarios I have written.
Good initiative which will surely be appreciated.
>There is also the
>matter of maps. I could uuencode the graphics to reduce the size or simply
>use an ASCII format. What formats can most people read, Gif,Tiff,Postscipt etc.
uuencoded real graphics is better. GIF or TIFF is preferable over PS since
they are easier to convert if they don't suit you.
_____
Peter Metcalfe on Pamaltelan magic:
>Joerg knows of my view in that they did pratice a distinct form of
>Rune Magic before the advent of the six legged empire. The strength
>of this magic (I wouldn't detail the mechanics here cause IMO it's
>v. rare) was that the spells could only be cast communally in mass
>dances (ie like war dances before battles), as opposed to calling
>upon the god at a snap of the fingers (ie conventional divine magic).
This is very interesting. Please do detail the mechanics.
_____
Peter Metcalfe on architecture:
>I would choose Zimbabwean architecture as Mesoamerican is already
>purloined in Dragonewt temples and the Kingdom of ignorance.
As always I prick up my ears when the east is mentioned. What's this
about the Kingdom of Ignorance? Where can I find more about their
architecture (and preferredly other things too)?
_____
Nick on geases:
I have thought similar thoughts but not to the obvious conclusion Nick makes.
I think the suggestion that you get benefits from trying to follow all
geases is perfectly logical. Myself I only reasoned as far as presuming
that gift and geas should match each other. For example, a Humakti who
gets the Sense assassin gift should get the No poison geas etc.
Anyway, following all geases seems 'right', but perhaps there should be
the possibility to be extra strict in special areas? Just a suggestion to
make truth rune cultists less stereotypical.
>And, furthermore: whoever gave Yelmalions their ludicrous armouring Geases
Ludicrous is the word. Why would Yelmalio want to impose geases on his
devoted worshippers which make them worthless in combat?
_____
/Nils W
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: TOTRM #12
Message-ID: <199410041033.SAA04014@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 5 Oct 94 02:46:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6468
I have just received my Tales #12, congrats on the colour cover,
very nice.
Is the Book of Emperors, as mentioned in the inside cover Edict,
available now? If so, anyone got it yet?
Warhamster looks quite worthwhile, I hope that I can eventually use
it. I have always admired the way AD&Ds Battle System integrates so well
with the rest of the game system (see, even TSR ocassionally produces
something worthwhile :-)), and I hope that Warhamster can do the same for
RQ.
I am not quite so pleased with the rest of it yet (though I haven't
read the fiction yet). Granite Phalanx seems well written, but continues
the tendencies I have seen happening in other RQ stuff to make everything
into a new cult, and to make up spells to explain what could just be
explained by superiour training and organisation. Do we really need spells
to explain why shield walls are a worthwhile tactic? Do we really need new
cults for each lunar regiment? I would much rather that it was just a sub
cult at best, and relied on training rather than magic.
And Queen Ogzags Hill read nicely, but will be very difficult to
use in most peoples game.
Yours Curmudgeonly
Dave Cake
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Shamans
Message-ID: <199410041034.SAA04025@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 5 Oct 94 02:46:36 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6469
>This should not be so. For whatever strange reason, the authors of RQ3's
>Spirit Magic chapter chose to leave out almost all the weird and wonderful
>things shamans can do; possibly intending to print them "next year" in
>HeroQuest.
I think that the RQ3 shamanic rules betray rather a lack of effort
put into them anyway. I quite like them as far as it goes, but even
important things are left unspecified. I think that the rules where
written, playtested as far as a few NPC shamans, but no serious playtesting
from the point of PC shamans.
At least, my attempts at having PC shamans showed up some holes
pretty quickly.
> Shamans, like Wizards, can certainly resurrect through hefty
>ceremonies.
Can I just say the blindingly obvious here - shamans can Resurrect,
and they do it by using divine magic. The separation into divine magic and
shamanic is an artificial separation, that makes sense in the context of
the RQ3 magic book, but does not hold up to Gloranthan reality. The
majority of RQ shamans are divine magic users as well.
How does a shaman Resurrect? Well a large proportion of them are
Ancestor worshippers, and cast Resurrect. Of course, it looks a lot
different to the casual observer, but in game terms much the same thing is
happening. The shaman summons the soul of the deceased (similar to the way
he summons ancestors), drives it back into its body, and intercedes with
Daka Fal to bind the two together again. Now maybe he interecedes less as a
worshipper and more as an acquaintance, but the result is the same.
Shamans who are not ancestor worshippers, or otherwise able to
Resurrect, probably do not know the lands and the lords of the dead to be
able to bring someone back. Shamans will think of their relationship to the
gods differently, but they will still know that it requires the favour of
someone powerful to undo what death has done. Some shamans may learn to do
it themselves (particularly the famous RQ2 self-resurrection ability) but
they must heroquest to gain such a power, probably learning it from one of
the gods who has it.
I definately agree that without divine magic, bringing back the
dead is not truely possible through pure shamanic means - and attempts to
do so result in undead, such as the zombies described in the RQ3 Creatures
book.
>They can also visit gods to intercede with them directly: more
>random and dangerous than Priestly access to divine power, but possible.
Either the god demands worship, and then you have a spirit cult
(compare troll worship of Asrelia or Lodril), or the shaman wants to
bargain, and then its called HeroQuesting.
>The game mechanics for Shamans are a blind to hide what they can in fact
>do: a "ShamanPak" or long discursive essay by One Who Knows would be a very
>handy thing to have.
The game mechanics for shamans miss the vital clue - most of them
are divine worshippers in some manner as well. Compare the varying
abilities of the Hsunchen, the Daka Fal, the Black Fang, Waha, Aldrya/
Flamal, Cannibal Cult, and Pamalt shamans. All are definataly shamans, but
their abilities vary greatly. For some of them the divine spells very
nicely work with shamanic abilities, too (particularly Daka Fal and
Pamalt). Then there is the huge variety of minor spirit cults to choose
from, the vast majority of which are unpublished, except for the troll
ones. And then there is the shamanic ability to control almost any spirit
that they can beat in combat, and us it against others later. With an
inventive GM that can be a great source of flavour.
We know of perhaps a dozen or so shamanic traditions, and there is
only one small and atypical tradition that does not include divine worship,
the Telmori Ituvani (who exist only alongside the more conventional Telmor
shamans).
No, I do not really think that we need many more rules for shamans
(we do need some, because some of the current rules for things like
exploring the spirit plane, and contacting spirits are very dodgy or
incomplete). What we need is a lot more source material and guidance on
what shamans do. Oh, and we really need HeroQuest, of course :-).
If there was to be a ShamanPak, what I would really like to see is
just a lot more about the geography and denizens of the spirit plane.
Basically a less abstract version of spirit travel, and a large number of
examples of the variety of spirits that exist and how shamans interact with
them. If the 6 page Troll Spirits section of Troll Gods was replicated for
Sartar spirits, or Praxian spirits, then that would be a great boon for
creating PC shamans. I guess a few small tips on some shamanic magic items
would be cool too (like the short section in Griffon Island).
There is a net version of the Praxian spirits (in fact I think that
there are two incompatible net versions), if this was hammered into a
finished form it would be pretty good.
Cheers
Dave
>====
>Nick
>====
>
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Non-divine Ressurrection
Message-ID: <9410041253.AA02861@Sun.COM>
Date: 4 Oct 94 12:52:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6470
Continuing the discussion on getting stiffs working with Divine Magic.
1) I am all for Shaman doing it (although it is definately harder this way).
If the spirit is too big for your fetch to hold use gift power so that they
can give your fetch POW to hold them. This also sorts out payment... I am
not sure whether mindlink is necessary on the spirit plane (why can't two
consenting adult spirits just merge and cast each others spells?
2) Whenbound back into its body this forms a LIVING being not a Zombie.
Remember the definition of Undead is cannot regenerate MPs normally.
3) Rewrite for Daka Fal scrub Resurrection as the shaman can do it with
Summon Ancestor and Ghost Binding Enchantment. I still think DF should have
spirit block. Remember this originally came from Flesh Man and he was/is a
close associate of DF & Grandfather Mortal.
4) The above resurrection system is cheaper for shamans than the 1-use normal
spell (2 POW instead of 3). Obviously, non-ancestor worshipers will have to
do it the hard way and trek about the spirit plane to find the spirit.
5) I doubt that Malkioni are so dead set against resurrection as one poster
implied. Their attitudes are to some extend influenced by the Brithini.
Brithini abhore DEATH, they hate the concept of aging and also violent death
above just about everything (except the Vadeli of course). One thing I remember
from a sneaky peak at Arkat's Saga was the cry of "Save the Bodies" from the
ranks of the Brithini army when some of their number were killed and swept out
to sea. Obviously they have a means of resurrection and would have used it!
Also remember the Aolian heratics who allow St CA to function in their midst.
I doubt whether they would have accepted her unique gifts if they came from
a culture that was fervently against resurrection.
6) I suspect sorcerous resurrection consists of creating a binding enchantment
in the body and summoning the spirit of the departed back and forcing them into
the body. Note that the binding enchantment is broken if the body is reduced
to zero HP. and must be repaired. Thus resurrections after the first one only
cost 1 POW. I suspect that the western Church would insist that a condition
was placed on the binding enchantment that only the original spirit of the
body could be placed within it. This avoids exceptionally nasty accidents
which might happen if a demon possessed (was bound into) the body...
7) Ths binding enchantment view provides one way of regarding death. That
which binds spirit and body together is broken by excessive damage to the body.
This allows the spirit to go free and thus begin to make its way to...
The decreptitude bought about by old age also weakens the body and thus the
bindings of the spirit, until at last it seperates and goes on its way.
Well there's food for thought
Cheers
Lewis
---------------------
From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Re: Arkati and Illumination
Message-ID: <9410041500.AA02674@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 4 Oct 94 17:08:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6471
Alex replying to our scenario -
>> The widespread acceptance of these definitions [of the Dark Side and
>> the Light Side of Nysalor/Illumination, in moral terms] is partly due
>> to the efforts of the Arkat cult (who regard themselves as the only
>> genuine Light Siders, any other Riddler must be Dark)
>
>This assumes that the Arkati regard themselves as Illuminates, which
>Greg assures (nay, chastens) me is not the case. They consider
>themselves to me opposed to Illimination and Nysalor worship in all
>forms.
Ho-hum. Gregged again. CoP (our reference for all this) says that Arkati
consider themselves the epitome of the Light Side. But of course, the idea
of "Arkati" wasn't very well developed back then. If we want to salvage
that old description, then we can assume that at least _one_ Arkat movement
(perhaps a really underground one that hasn't been written about yet)
preserves the original secret of Arkat's Illumination and encourages it
among its members.
>> But in fact, many Illuminates don't fit either mold:
>
>Given the freedom Illuminates have to act however they wish, neither the
>"Light" or "Dark" side is so much as mould, as a handy label.
Yes, we know: that's our point. The passage you're citing is an attempt to
discredit the dualism. As I thought I'd made clear with my closing remarks.
( Jonas Schiott )
( Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria )
( Goteborgs Universitet )
---------------------
From: watson@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Re: Shaman and Sorcery Resurrections
Message-ID: <199410041557.QAA02233@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 17:57:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6472
___________
Dave Cordes:
> Now that at least four of us agree that resurrections should not necessarily
> be limited to just the Chalanna Arroy Divine Spell.
Four in agreement? There must be some mistake. ;-)
> What sort of games mechanism would someone suggest for a Shaman or
> Sorcerer to perform a resurrection?
I think you were along the right lines as far as recovering the spirit
is concerned. Binding the spirit back into its body would, IMO, require that
the corpse be Enchanted - it's necessary to recreate the magic which allows
things to live.
Bind Ghost won't do because it just binds a spirit (with INT & POW) into
an inanimate corpse (which, at best, has SIZ & APP): the result is incomplete.
I tend to adhere to the idea that newly-dead spirits retain their STR, CON
and DEX for a while after death (though these characteristics are fairly useless
in the spirit-world and tend to dissolve in a matter of days). If you recovered
the spirit quickly enough and used a 5-POW binding enchantment on the body
(to bind the pseudo-ghost's INT POW DEX STR and CON) I think you'd essentially
restore the person's life.
To me this seems "Very Hard" enough.
1/ You have the trouble of recovering the spirit.
2/ You have the cost of enchanting the corpse (5 POW).
And the risk of failure: 5 POW for naught.
3/ You have a time-limit - the spirit gradually loses DEX, STR & CON.
In addition, the enchantment might give the shaman some sort of hold over
the resurrectee - like knowledge of how to break the enchantment thereby
severing the beneficiery's spirit.
> Why does the game system have to make resurrections "very hard"? The system
> should allow for all types and attitudes of GMs and players. The ability to
> resurrect should be available easily, IF THE GM WANTS IT TO BE.
Resurrection is powerful magic; its cost and difficulty should reflect this.
Create Zombie is costly and difficult but it only restores a parody of life.
Surely full life-restoration should be more costly and more difficult?
(For this same reason I think CA's reusable Resurrection is way too powerful.)
If you want resurrection to be freely available then you can simply
populate the world with powerful, altruistic NPCs who are willing to sack
POW at the drop of a hat.
> If the GM
> wants his world to be a hard place to live, and an even harder place to come
> back to life in, then he has the power to make it so.
I don't want my world to be a *hard* place to live - I want it to be
a *fair* place to live. PCs don't die too regularly so resurrection is
not required. (When they die they stay dead).
I'd fudge things to avoid unnecessary PC death rather than fudge things
*after* death to get them back to life again.
___
CW.
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 04 Oct 1994
Message-ID: <9410041915.AA23556@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 4 Oct 94 05:15:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6473
David Cake:
> The Exigers sound a bit like a less extreme version of the Kingdom
>of War (minus the unifying leader).
Think of them as a cross between the ancient Spartans and the
Chinese Triads.
>In TOTRM #11, the Exigers are described as having mastered many
>unusual fighting arts. I got the impression that the various tribes
>within the Exigers each had different specialist techniques. Is this
>correct? If so, what are some examples of the special techniques?
Your assumption is correct. Three examples: The Brand clan
(broken up and defeated in my house campaign) used flaming weapons in
combat, trying to set fire to their foes' shields and armor with
burning tar in the midst of melee. The Kujerung clan specialized in
thrown weapons and had tactics appropriate to maximize such. The
Viter clan used venom on their weapons and missiles and booby traps.
>To differentiate them from the KOW, I like the idea that they do
>not have religious differences, but more straight political rivalry,
>with frequent deadly personal vendettas.
They in fact do not have any important religious differences.