From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 07 Oct 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: langham@cougar.multiline.com.au (Bernard Langham) Subject: Black Arkat, Kitori Message-ID:Date: 7 Oct 94 00:03:13 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6501 Bernard here, fighting back on behalf of his Black Arkati Templars. >>The following deals (to my satisfaction anyway) with several thorny >>questions surrounding the Temple of Black Arkat. In particular, it >>explains (1) why the Temple appears on no map and (2) why it has no Troll >>members. >> >There are an awful lot of Temples that appear on no map! By (1) I meant "why we are unable to decide whether the Temple lies within Kitori lands near the Troll Woods, or further south in Hendriki territory" (an argument which has been going on for some time). My solution elides the problem by making the "Templars" into a social group, rather than tying them down to a physical location. >I quote the entire official knowledge on the subject of Temple of Black >Arkat, for reference > 'The Temple of Black Arkat > In the Holy Country, in the land of Heortland, is the House of >Black Arkat. This is a temple of the cult which teaches sorcery to its >initiates, and is, in every way, just like the troll cult, except that all >its initiates are human.' [snip] > I think that it is a place. It may even be that most of its >initiates do not live there, and wander Kethaela, but I do think that it is >a place. Tis, taint. I don't think that the Black Temple is coterminous with the Kitori tribe. It would certainly have adherents amongst other peoples whose lands border on Troll Territory. I would expect to find Way of Darkness proseletisers haunting the streets of Alda-Chur, Adari, and Alone, and wherever else the black-shrouded caravans of Argan Argar go. >I like the term Templars. Joerg and I in private conversation have compared >them to the Knights Templar, a warrior cult with many overtones of religion >and mysticism, sorcery, and conspiracy. OK, so that might be a bit hard on >the historical Templars, but you know what I mean. I also wanted to imply a certain zealousness, and attachment to dubious rites of darkness and blood, which accords with the popular image of the Knights Templar. >> The Troll Adoption Rite (Book of Uz pp >34-35) is their supreme sacrement. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >A plausible idea, as Arkat himself underwent it, and did particularly well. >(see Jonstown Compendium fragment in Troll Gods). I really must learn to elaborate more. This, of course, is precisely _why_ I made the connection between the Templars and the Adoption rite in the first place. >It seems unlikely to be >common in a cult with no troll members, regarded disdainfully by most >trolls, though. We-e-e-e-ell, if you read the writeup (which you kindly extract above), it doesn't actually say there are no Troll members. It says "exactly like Troll cult... teaches Sorcery to its INITIATES...all INITIATES are human [emphasis mine]." This does not rule out the possibility of non-humans in the cult heirarchy beyond Initiate level. In my earlier post I said that the Black Templars (who are, indeed, all human...to begin with) view the Troll Adoption Rite as "their *supreme sacrement*", the ultimate station of their Cross, precisely _because_ Arkat underwent it. However, it's not just a matter of rolling up to the local KL temple and asking to have your bits exchanged. The ritual is restricted to high cult rank and those of unusual dedication or calling. The Trolls have to agree as well, and only do so in exceptional circumstances. The Adoption Rite is a Great Mystery to them, of blood, death and rebirth, and only rarely performed. Uz distrust of blue-eyed Trolls (rhymes with blue-eyed Soul) is a political reality which the Black Templars have to deal with. For further insight, I recommend a close reading of Spike Lee's "Do The Right Thing" (white boyz wanna be Prince; white gurlz wanna be Whitney). Also, you enter a political minefield when, as a member of a dominant culture, you set yourself up as a "white soul brother" to an oppressed minority culture (Trolls would be the last to admit to their oppression, but the Elder Races aren't exactly ruling the roost in Glorantha these days). The issues are complex, power-related, and polarise the Troll community along political lines. Some view the humans' desire to become more like Trolls as blasphemous, and an insult to Uzdom; others see it as an endorsement of Troll racial superiority. The majority are undecided, and will go along with whatever the KL Priestess says. I would think even Adopted humans would have to deal with Uz zenophobia, and might be regarded as "coconuts" (Australian Aboriginal term of abuse for a Nyoongar who's "black on the outside, white on the inside") by some Trolls. Of course, most Adoptees would have a powerful KL priestess as a patron (otherwise they'd never have undergone the rite in the first place), and they are also the subject of some religious awe. Still, it's a difficult path, and one rarely trodden: you earn the hatred of humans as a race traitor, and are regarded with suspicion by your adopted people. >>Their mission is to keep the Chaos Nest in Larnste's Footprint >>from seeping through the Stonewood into the surrounding countryside. > > For reasons I will explain later, near the Footprint is exactly >where I think that they AREN'T. Arkati are big on the anti-Chaos schtick, no? So where do _you_ think they spend their weekends? Come on, David, it stands to reason. "Let's see now, we're human members of a Troll cult which fights Chaos. There's a Troll/human tribe in the Troll Woods, and a Chaos Nest, so I think we ought to base ourselves as far away as possible from them." Yeah right. >> Trolls >>view this Uz-wanna-be society with secret amusement, but respect its >>anti-Chaos zeal. Obviously, no _real_ Uz would dream of becoming a member. > >I have a much simpler answer to why no trolls are involved, which also >neatly answers the question of why there are two separate groups of >Darkness worshipping humans in Heortland. > It is simply that I think that the Temple of Black Arkat is not >near the Troll Woods, and not too close to the Shadow Plateau, and thus has >no trolls in it simply because it is not near any trolls. It could well be >a relic of when the Only Old One ruled. Tis, Taint. Until Greg or some other RuneGod decides one way or another, either explanation could be true. Yours sounds eminently reasonable, but (if you'll forgive me for saying so) somewhat dull. I think mine is more interesting, memorable, and, well, Gloranthan (in the grand tradition of Imminent Mastery/Kero Finn/The Block/Cannibal Cult/Anticamelus Riders/other colourful but somewhat unlikely things), and has more scope for roleplaying, which is my sole criterion for preferring it to yours. I chose a Kitori character in yr campaign because I am interested in the way the intersections of wildly varying cultures highlight difference (Henotheism at the confluence of Malkioni and Theist continental plates; Kitori caught between Human and Troll culture; bizarre and fascinating interactions result). But then, [insert pompous Latin aphorism meaning "Your mileage may vary" here]. On Kitori Henotheism: > > Definately disagree here. Apart from the wisdom of adding yet >another group of henotheists to the Kethaela area (as pointed out by >someone else, the number of Westerners is getting out of hand). Doesn't worry me. There are a lot of Westerners in the area because it was conquered by Arkat during the Dawn Age, and is now directly linked via lucrative land and sea-going trade routes with Ralios, Seshnela and Fronela. I think the Kitori are Henotheist/Stygian because: [1] converted to Malkionism by Arkat in Dawn Age; [2] explains presence of Sorcerous Templars -- NB we're told Sorcerers can't exist without some kind of Western infrastructure to back them up [3] permits coexistence with Trolls by removing main source of conflict (religious disagreements) [4] Trolls remember Arkat fondly (he set up the Shadowlands and left the OOO to rule over them) and are hip to Kitori Arkatism [5] I actually have enormous difficulty imagining a Sorceror as anything other than Malkioni, or at the very least Henotheist. In part this stems from my liking for Paul Reilly's infamous Twin system. In fact, my version of the Kitori invests heavily in Twin theory for its justification, via a long and complicated process of reverse-engineering the mechanics of Henotheist Sorcery as they differ from, say, Brithini Sorcery and Troll Sorcery. Which is too boring to go into right now but stay tuned! David suggests plausible Argan Argar link: >Thus the Troll Kygor Litor Queen has no problem with allying herself to an >Argan Argar King, and the Ernaldans simply revere Argan Argar as foremost >husband protector. No Henotheism necessary, I'm glad to say. You seem very hostile to the notion of Henotheism on the border of Dragon Pass and Kathaela. I would expect to see many (contrasting) examples of it, many different ways of integrating the old ways with the new, in the shifting no-mans land between the diehard theist cultures of Dragon Pass and the ever-increasing influence of Western civilization marching down the loading ramps of the trade ships in Nochet city. Tribes adapt, reinvent themselves, find new myths, rethink the old ways. I'm not sure why you have a problem with this. Though for what it's worth, I think the Kitori are more theist than, say, the inhabitants of the Hendriki Kingdom of Malkonwal. They still actively worship their old gods, just under new names. The old cult structures are still plainly visible. [snip] >but there is probably a significant minority of Zorak Zorani anti-chaos >fanatics, given the closeness of the Rubble. ^^^^^^ You misspelled Footprint. > Another thing worth noting is there is one famous troll from the >Hero Wars period, described as being from the south, which presumably means >the troll woods, so probably a Kitori. He is Obash Broos-smasher, a >runelord with an intelligent sylph for an allied spirit! That'll be Wu Ch'eng En the Baboon and his ally Cloud. Didn't I mention? He changed his name after undergoing the Adoption Rite. :) > Cheers > Dave Later, ~Barney -- Bernard Langham . langham@cougar.multiline.com.au . Perth, Western Australia --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 06 Oct 1994 Message-ID: <9410062029.AA01533@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 6 Oct 94 06:29:44 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6508 > Since one of the primary myths of Daka Fal/Ancestor Worship is the > separation of the dead from the living, resurrection might be seen > as sacreligious. Many, but not all, of Glorantha's ancestor worshipers hate and fear death. And they fear their ancestors as much as they honor them. Note for instance the high prevalence of "neutral" and even malign ancestors -- obviously the spirits are less than benign. I think they're thrilled to have access to Resurrection through the Daka Fal cult structure, and use it at every opportunity (which may not be very often, of course). Nick Brooke's praise of my last Pamaltelan myth encourages me to tell another. NOTE: Duala is the daughter of Pamalt and Faranar. She makes the good rain come (as opposed to the bad rain), but she is also a goddess of sunshine and happiness. In some cultures, she is born anew every year. She is always portrayed as pre- or barely- adolescent. The Six Legged Empire thought that she was Voria. DUALA AND THE SEVEN MONSTERS Well, there were these seven monsters, and there was Duala. One day, Duala and her six friends all went out to play. The seven monsters say the girls running by and Snaggletooth said, "Look! A tasty tidbit for each of us!" And the monsters came running out after them. Oh, no! Monsters! The girls ran, ran. The monsters ran after the girls. The monsters ran faster than the girls. The girls came to Banyan Tree. "Oh Banyan tree, you are our father and our mother, save us!" Banyan Tree said, "Climb up!" and the girls climbed into the tree. Here come the monsters! The monsters are too clumsy to climb the tree. "Banyan Tree!" command the monsters. "Shake down the girls." "No, not I!" says Banyan Tree. "One of us must run home and get Axe to chop down Banyan Tree." says Snaggletooth. "You go get it, Sagbelly." "No," says Sagbelly. "While I am gone, the girls might tumble out of the tree, and then YOU would get to eat the chief's daughter [i.e., Duala], instead of me." "You run get it, Spindleshanks." "No!" "You run get it, Goggle-eyes." "No!" "You run get it, Dripsnoot." "No!" "You run get it, Knot-tail." "No!" "You run get it, Frogbeard." "No!" "Well, then," said Snaggletooth. "We must all go together." All the monsters ran back to their cave to get Axe. While the monsters were gone, Banyan Tree said, "You girls better run from here." And the girls climbed down from the tree and ran on. The monsters came back with Axe. "It's no use chopping ME down. The girls have gone this long while." The monsters threw away Axe and ran, ran, after the girls. The girls ran, ran. The monsters ran after the girls. The monsters ran faster than the girls. The girls came to Rock. "Rock, you are our father and our mother, save us!" Rock said, "Come in and hide." and Rock opened up for the girls to crawl in. Then Rock shut himself up again. Here come the monsters! "Rock!" order the monsters. "Open up, and give us the girls." "No, not I!" says Rock. "One of us must run and get Hammer to break open Rock." says Snaggletooth. "Sagbelly, go and get Rock." "No!" says Sagbelly. "While I am gone, the girls might come out of the rock, and then YOU would get to eat the chief's daughter." "Go for Hammer, Spindleshanks." "No!" "Go for Hammer, Goggle-eyes." "No!" "Go for Hammer, Dripsnoot." "No!" "Go for Hammer, Knot-tail." "No!" "Go for Hammer, Frogbeard." "No!" "Hmm," says Snaggletooth. "Seems we must ALL go." So all the monsters pounded on home to get Hammer. While the monsters were gone, Rock said, "You girls better get before the monsters return." And Rock opened up, and the girls ran away. Back came the monsters with Hammer. "It's no use pounding on ME," said Rock. "The girls are gone this long while." The monsters cursed and threw Hammer away to chase after the girls. The girls ran, ran. The monsters ran after the girls. Oh no! The girls are in a great open flat plain with nowhere to hide. The monsters ran faster than the girls. The girls came to a little marshy place. In the marsh sat Frog. "Oh, Frog! You are our father and our mother. Save us!" "You are big and hard to hide, but I will try." said Frog. "Clamber in my mouth." So the girls climbed in Frog's mouth and she hid them. Then Frog picked up her javelin points from her hole and put them in her cheeks. Frog has been collecting javelin points in the marsh for a long time. Here come the monsters. "Give up the girls, Frog, or it will be bad for you." say the monsters. "All right," says Frog. "But you have to line up in front of me. Stay lined up." The monsters line up in front of Frog. POK! POK! Frog spits out the javelin points and Snaggletooth and Sagbelly fall dead. "No! No!" shout the monsters. "Spit out the chief's daughter and the girls." "All right," says Frog. "But stand in line right in front of me." The monsters go back in line. POK! POK! POK! POK! POK! All the monsters fall dead. Then Frog hops to the chief's house. "Where are the girls, Frog?" asks Chief Pamalt. Frog spits out the girls. They come dancing and singing out. Chief Pamalt gives honeycakes to everyone to eat. And Chief Pamalt makes a golden jewel for Frog to wear in her head when she sits amongst the marshes. You can see the jewel today, when you look into Frog's eyes. She still glitters with it. NOTE: In most similar Orlanthi myths, the emphasis would be on the defeat of the monsters, and how they were beaten. Note the different take on the Pamaltelan version, in which the story becomes an education in cooperation -- or lack of it, in which the monsters' inability to trust one another leads to their downfall. ---------------------