From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 09 Oct 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Henotheism in Maniria Message-ID:Date: 8 Oct 94 11:50:06 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6531 Bernard Langham in X-RQ-ID: 6501 > On Kitori Henotheism: >> Definately disagree here. Apart from the wisdom of adding yet >>another group of henotheists to the Kethaela area (as pointed out by >>someone else, the number of Westerners is getting out of hand). > Doesn't worry me. There are a lot of Westerners in the area because it was > conquered by Arkat during the Dawn Age, and is now directly linked via > lucrative land and sea-going trade routes with Ralios, Seshnela and > Fronela. When I tried a circumspect approach to the actual spread of henotheists in Maniria in the wake of Arkat in the Convulsion Lore Auction Greg wasn't prepared to have (m)any of them there. The God Learners came, but they held Esrolia and the south, not the northeastern part of the Shadowlands. > I think the Kitori are Henotheist/Stygian because: > [1] converted to Malkionism by Arkat in Dawn Age; After Arkat had converted to Humakt, then to Zorak Zoran? Stygian they are in the sense that they worship Darkness. > [2] explains presence of Sorcerous Templars -- NB we're told Sorcerers > can't exist without some kind of Western infrastructure to back them up I.e. a constant influx of tithe. Now, this could be got through highway "tolls". > [3] permits coexistence with Trolls by removing main source of conflict > (religious disagreements) Why does this make them Malkioni? > [4] Trolls remember Arkat fondly (he set up the Shadowlands and left the > OOO to rule over them) Arkat reinstalled the OOO, but gave Heortland to the Hendr(e)iki. IMO a lot of bad blood between these two nations came from this decision. > and are hip to Kitori Arkatism sez you. > [5] I actually have enormous difficulty imagining a Sorceror as anything > other than Malkioni, or at the very least Henotheist. Look at God Forgot: Sorcerers, but I'm not sure they ever had a direct connection to Malkion, apart from Brithini colonists. Or look at the Third Eye Blue people, who stole secrets from dwarves (the people of God Forgot did so too, at least in the 2nd Age). Plus Lunar ones, an inheritance from the Carmanians and their precedessors in Pelanda. And then there are sorcerers in a non-rules sense like in the case of Orathorn, the EWF magicians of Remakerela or the City of 10,000 Magicians in Aggar. > In part this stems > from my liking for Paul Reilly's infamous Twin system. In fact, my version > of the Kitori invests heavily in Twin theory for its justification, via a > long and complicated process of reverse-engineering the mechanics of > Henotheist Sorcery as they differ from, say, Brithini Sorcery and Troll > Sorcery. Which is too boring to go into right now but stay tuned! Too boring? The process maybe, but what about the results? > You seem very hostile to the notion of Henotheism on the border of Dragon > Pass and Kathaela. When I first went public with my version of Aeolian ideas, I encountered, well, less than enthusiasm on this list. Apparently the lack of wizards in RQ2 caused a mindblock in accepting a Malkioni presence even close to Dragon Pass even when it was clear that sorcery was right at home in the Holy Country - ever since GoG made Dormal a member of the Malkioni array, and that _Sir_ Ethilrist is a knight. In fact, quite a lot of knights feature in old RQ or Glorantha publications in Dragon Pass - anybody ever wondered about Sir Narib and his company, from the Sartar magical union? > I would expect to see many (contrasting) examples of > it, many different ways of integrating the old ways with the new, in the > shifting no-mans land between the diehard theist cultures of Dragon Pass > and the ever-increasing influence of Western civilization marching down > the loading ramps of the trade ships in Nochet city. So do I. I have no problem with a Malkioni colony in Porthomeka, and I am certain that there were Malkioni in Nochet for a long time before 1580. Kethaela wasn't conquered by the Return to Rightness fanatics, but by the Zistor/Machine God movement, with support from Slontos, and it had been infiltrated even before Auld Wyrmish was released upon Dragon Pass. I'd like to know whom the duTumerines disposed 1582 or so in Nochet when they bought or otherwise aquired the bishopric of that place. A Trader Prince bishop from Ralios? If so, who was in office before those arrived (probably around 1200)? How strong is the Waertagi colony in the Holy Country? Nochet is one of their ancient ports... > Tribes adapt, reinvent themselves, find new myths, rethink the old ways. Like the Sartarite settlers, who came from a densely settled and quite urbanized region in the Holy Country (some of them already in the OOO's reign, notably the Colymar from Esrolia). > I'm not sure > why you have a problem with this. Though for what it's worth, I think the > Kitori are more theist than, say, the inhabitants of the Hendriki Kingdom > of Malkonwal. This makes me cringe: the Hendriki kingdom was known as the Kingdom of Heortland. Malkonwal was the name given to the conquered part of it by Richard the Tigerhearted, after the sunk capital of Malkion in Seshnela. After 1620 the mention of Malkonwal in Heortland could have worse social consequences than a cheerful "All Hail the Red Moon" in Geo's. > They still actively worship their old gods, just under new names. Then in what way is this henotheist? Or do you mean the added St if you talk about new names? "St Zorak Zoran guide me!" Nah... I'm not even that happy with "Saint Issaries" among the Aeolians. > The old cult structures are still plainly visible. This is true for the Aeolians, whom I consider to be quite far from standard 3rd Age Malkionism (not so far from 1st Age Malkionism, though). -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de ---------------------