From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 11 Oct 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: stuff Message-ID: <9410101750.AA13248@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 10 Oct 94 05:50:48 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6552 Paul Snow: >Does collecting the heads of fallen enemies, in a Celtic-Orlanthi >way, prevent resurrection? Excellent question. Because most roleplayers come from a modern society which has decided that man's "life" centers in the brain, most roleplayers assume that the same must be true of their characters as well. I've tried to claim before that the liver is where the soul is centered. The heart is another claimant. Maybe because almost everyone pegs the brain as the logical choice I should just give up and agree that the head is the site from which resurrection starts. On the other hand I _like_ the idea that to prevent resurrection you've got to do a little more than lop off the head and carry it off (like excise the heart). Joerg >Insect??? Both Alex and I ought to qualify as mammalian life forms, >primates, not children of Gorakiki. Hah. I've seen ye both. "Stick Insect" is the word. You, Alex, and John Cleese. >Any elemental division of pantheons seems alien to the Doraddi. Agreed. The little bit that does seem to creep into their doctrines I suggest are fossilized bits of Six Legger dogma. >What about the coastal Pamaltelans? Umathela has imported Genertelan >creed, Fonrit is dominated by the Garangording spirits of oppression >and city gods. What about Laskal, Maslo etc.? In the first place, of course, there _are_ no coastal Pamaltelans. At least, as a group. It's kind of like classifying all "Asians" together into one category. But I know you know this. UMATHELA: the Umathelans primarily worship deities that are recognizably of Genertelan descent. However, the Orlanthi of Sartar probably have more in common with the Jonatings than either group shares with the Umathelan Orlanthi. These forest-dwelling barbarians know of the Lightbringer mythos, and worship all the Lightbringers. They are close allies of the forest elves, sometimes even subsidiary to them. The various barbarian tribes are associated with particular rivers. Particularly large tribes control an entire river system, while others only command a single tributary. The coastal city-states are recognizably Western in origin, though they are much less centralized than the Genertelan churches. This might possibly be because Umathelan nations are small, so no "state" church has much of a chance to inflict its doctrines over a wide area. One fairly widespread church claims to recognize a unity with itself and the Holy Rokari Church, but I don't think this belief is reciprocated as of yet. FONRIT has its own array of solar and other gods. Equivalents of Yelm, Lodril, and Dayzatar are all worshiped here, along with the dark deities of Ompalam, Jraktal, and even Ikadz. LASKAL, to forge a stereotype, is kind of like a "nice" Fonrit. That is, slavery is not the underpinning of society, but there are still problems. Piracy, for instance. And Kimos is a nightmare. Inland there are jungle tribes, but these would not be considered "civilized" or worthy of study by most Genertelans. MASLO, like most of Pamaltela, is organized into city-states as the highest order of civilization. Each state is separated from its neighbors by stretches of jungle, and each state is in essence its own little culture, with its own beliefs and creeds. Of course, to an outsider, there is a certain unifying oneness to all these states, but they themselves tend to see the differences, not the similarities. Both Elamle and Onlaks are under a great deal of pressure, and humanity's existence here may be tenuous. (Elamle is cursed by the Mother of Mothers, and Onlaks' perpetual war with the Gargualian elves is actually quite serious.) Dave Pearton: >do the Brithini and dwarves have what the theistic cultures would >recognise as a soul. I think that many theistic cultures believe that _everybody_ has a soul. I would say that a heretic dwarf who joined a lightbringer cult could be resurrected through CA magic. For that matter, I'd allow a Brithini who'd spent his lifetime persecuting lightbringer cults to be resurrected through CA magic (though I might inflict a spirit of retribution on the healer afterwards). >The proposal for inverted pyramids and other weird mezoamerican type >stuff for the KOI came from the _old_ daily, before Henk took over. I'm comparatively new to the daily. Only really been here since last November or so. I have no objections to inverted pyramids in Bliss in Ignorance, but I am a bit stumped as to why inverted pyramids are considered to be mesoamerican. I think that Bliss in Ignorance is thought to be aztec-like because they are known to have engaged in large-scale blood sacrifice before the trolls took over. The trolls, of course, transformed these into highly complex gladiator games, and charged admission. Nowadays, the Kralori mandarins have ousted the trolls, so the worst of these outrages are past. On the other hand, I predict that Bliss in Ignorance supports a large number of highly peculiar sports. They may, for instance, be the only large-scale human community to play trollball. Alex, re: the Doraddi >So how do they regard blood relatives _not_ in their lineages, then? Technically, the lineages only determine marriagability. In practice, of course, different tribes and areas add all kinds of baggage onto this basic concept. Or maybe it's just that all the Doraddi agree on the lineages determining marriagability, whatever else is also determined by them. In most Doraddi cultures, sharing a lineage does not mean automatic friendship or even friendliness. If anything, they tend to be friendlier to folks from _another_ lineage rather than their own. Hence, blood relations and in-laws are more important in most social interactions. But on the other hand, the lineages determine who is _able_ to become your in-law, so they matter too. It's all a big mix-up. In addition, despite the huge respect and honor given the elderly, most of the old men and women are tucked away neatly in the oasis villages, where you don't have to deal with them on an everyday basis, so the large extended family is not so much a part of the Doraddi relationships as one might expect. "Honorary" family members are more the norm, as exemplified in a recently-posted Pamaltelan tale in which Pamalt was addressed as "cousin", "nephew", and "uncle" by all sorts of folks to whom he was technically no relation. Peter Metcalfe: I'd like to publicly acknowledge my shame at falsely accusing Peter of hailing from perfidious Albion in my last posting. He is, of course, a noble New Zealander, pure in motive and clean of limb. Nils:slarges live in them? I thought they weren't your preferrable >neighbours. No (as in "no they don't live in swamps" you're right about their being undesirable neighbors). Actually, slarges would probably die in swamps. They live in arid grasslands, over in Tarien. They are open-country creatures, though since they're intelligent and even metal-working (i.e., more highly technologically advanced than their human neighbors) once they've made their way to jungles, mountains, or forests they'll probably be able to invade such territory. Slarges pretty much prevent human contact with the swamps of Hornilio, so all my comments praising swamps and marshes in the daily should be taken as praise of Sozganjio only. Of course, some humans have visited Hornilio, but these were mostly ship-borne, visiting the Worm Sea from further north. Bernard: > I actually have enormous difficulty imagining a Sorceror as >anything other than Malkioni, or at the very least Henotheist. Joerg: >Look at God Forgot: Sorcerers ... Orathorn ... Peloria ... Third Eye Blue, etc.. First, a minor technical point: I'd like to popularize the term "wizard" for use with practitioners of sorcery who serve in an organized religion. I.e., technically, no "sorcerer" is Malkioni, at least not a very good one. But presumably the point that Bernard is making is that the sorcerers learned their magic from Malkioni. I'd like to elaborate on a number of exceptions to this: 1) The magician clan of Orathorn. I do not believe them to be Malkioni or any other recognizable breed. Perhaps they do not practice "true" sorcery, but some other kind of magic. 2) Most of the sorcerers of Peloria. While the Pelorian wizards may have originally learned their sorcery from Carmania, they are today neither Malkioni nor henotheist. 3) The sorcerers of Fonrit. These fellows almost certainly learned their magic from the God Learners, but there is little trace of the Invisible God here today. Sorcery is considered in most cities to be simply a professional job, much like being a healer, slaver, or politico. It's almost not considered "magic" at all, in the same sense that Rune spells are such. Despite this pragmatic approach to sorcery (or maybe _because_ of it), the Fonritian sorcerers are notoriously inferior in skills and talent to "real" wizards, such as those from Umathela or the hated Vadeli. 4) Speaking of which -- the Vadeli are by definition non-Malkioni -- anti-Malkioni, if you will -- and are fine sorcerers. 5) Kralorela and the East Isles also practice magic that is loosely termed "sorcery", but in fact has nothing in common with Western sorcery. This would probably be more obvious if there were any Western sorcerers in contact with the East, so that the differences were more obvious. For now, we should just call the Kralori magic "mysticism", not sorcery. Nick Brooke: >Quibbling apart, I agree that Humakti Tricksters are about as >reasonable as Humakti Vampires or female Sun Lords. Which is to say at any one time in Glorantha, there's at least _one_ of each of these critters running around. Just like there's _one_ soft-hearted Death Lord somewhere. --------------------- From: 100116.2616@compuserve.com (David Hall) Subject: Before the X-Files start... Message-ID: <941010212753_100116.2616_BHG66-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 10 Oct 94 21:27:54 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6554 Reaching Moon Megacorp: Just thought I'd better let you know that I no longer have any copies of the Sog City Guide left. The last copies just went to France and Sweden. I still have plenty of copies of Tales #11 & #12, The RQ-Con Compendium, & Jar-Eel T-shirts (though I've not got many XL's left). Also, Martin Crim is correct concerning the Book of Emperors. Unfortunately, Chaosium have changed their plans since issue #12 was put together. It is now expected to be re-released at RQ-Con. I hope to bring back some masters so that I can sell it from the UK. God Learners and stuff: I never got my chance to reply on this - but that's my fault. It will no doubt come around again one day... However, in the process of putting together a posting I came up with some ideas around the Hill of Gold. Hill of Gold ideas: I think this is an example of heroquesting and of the linking of two separate myths to create a new mythical truth. I think the first myth is where Elmal, the loyal thane, pays homage to Orlanth, his Chieftain, and is armed by Orlanth. However, in the Yelmalion version Yelmalio shows off his new fire powers, fights Orlanth, loses his spear, but cannot be cowed or forced into submission by Orlanth. The second myth is a Yelmic myth where the loyal son goes to seek acceptance from his father, Yelm, and is tested along the way. In the Yelmalio version things go a bit awry (with Zorak Zoran and Inora), but Yelmalio eventually makes it to the Hill of Gold and is accepted by Yelm as his son. This would have first been accomplished by some heroic type, probably at the behest of his clan, with clan support, and IMO with the co-operation of Yelmic missionaries. It would have been a very dangerous quest, partially into the unknown and requiring various preparations and rituals to gather items and weapons to help him along his journey (including fire powers). On completion of the quest the heroic type would then form a hero cult to teach others how he accomplished the quest. In this way the new truth is spread and converts gained. What is the real truth of this? I don't know! Maybe the Yelmalions are really resurrecting the original myth split into two when Elmal was constructed by evil Orlanthi heroquesters. Or maybe they are just resurrecting the previously resurrected construction... or even a... no, never mind. Unless the truth has been written down somewhere, like in the Blue Book of Zzabur or on the God's Wall, or if someone like Ralzakark or Farang Farosh remembers then we'll never know! And all they'll tell us is what the truth was at that point in time. I could post my Vantaros Yelmalio story from HotB if anyone is interested. Humakti in the Lismelder tribe (from way, way, back - at least two weeks): I reckon that a Lismelder tribesman or woman initiated into the cult of Indrodar cuts themself off from their previous life and from their kin. To them he or she dies. You can devote yourself better to Death if you are already dead! This is down to my peculiar view of the Humakti. I can't quite accept the idea of people being initiated one day into Humakt and then returning to clan life the next. I also find it hard to accept solitary Humakti who only have to turn up to a temple three or four times a year in order to remain attuned to the inner mysteries and truths of Death. I think being initiated should mean a bit more. So in my campaign when you are initiated into Humakt you join a temple of Swordbrothers - your new kith and kin. Previous ties are formally cut (but not informally - it's only a ceremony). The duties of the temple include protecting the tribe from enemies and from the denizens of the Upland Marsh. However, individuals are also hired out as housecarls to Chieftains, and this is the way I get PC Indrodari back into the campaign! Esrolia: I believe that Esrolia is ruled by women. Robert Graves has written some interesting stuff on how this might work - see the opening chapter of The Golden Fleece. I'm sure that women command the armies, surrounded by their Babeester Gor Axe Maidens. However, the majority of the army is probably male: foreign mercenaries; effete Esrolian Humakti; and lots of peasant militia. Karse. I only have a little information on the city. I think that the city is actually New Karse, a new port was built under the auspices of Tarkalor Trollkiller (KoS, p43 & what I remember from when I visited Chaosium - I may be wrong). The population is 6K. During the siege in 1619 there were at least four unsuccessful assaults on the city before it fell. However, after the final assault the city was spared and by the next spring the port was active. Apparently, Fazzur launched a winter raid on the City of Wonders in which up to 3,000 Lunar discorporate or dreaming spirits were involved. The Pharoah seems to have beaten the attack off but at some cost. Aeolians: In actual fact the Htwwo Aeolians are my fault, though Nick had some input into them. I made them very Orlanthi-ish to allow standard Orlanthi worship to co-exist with Aeolian worship. Would anyone like me to post the write-up onto the daily? Joerg: >David Hall wouldn't have allowed you to reenact the test of Ehilm's Flame... Ahem! Kevin had the flamethower and the hydrochloric acid in the car! You can try anything in a freeform. Kitori tribe: From some notes I took at Chaosium (90% accurate): Founded by human Argan Argar refugees from the Kingdom of the Only Old One and the Trolls of the Troll Woods who sheltered them. They are said to have twin kings, both said to be married to the Kitori mother, a Kyger Litor ancestress, who is the founder of a Daka Fal dynasty which settled the region and took over from the elves in the 2nd Age. Estimated population: Man-Kitori 7,000 and Troll-Kitori 10,000. The humans farm, the trolls prefer to stay in the shadow of the woods. So I don't think they're Henotheist. Porthomeka: IMHO Porthomeka isn't Western. I think that that aspect is already covered by God Forgot. Total population is 161K (150K rural. On the map I have Rhigos is not part of Porthomeka, instead being part of Esrolia... hmm... didn't notice that before... Earth Esrolia Fire Caladraland Storm Heortland Darkness Shadowlands Water The Islands Logic God Forgot I wonder if Heortland being taken over by the Malkioni might have upset the elemental balance, thus weakening the Pharaoh? Porthomeka has the largest population of all of the Caladraland provinces. I'd maybe go for a Yelmic culture? It might give some interesting friction with the Esrolians to the north? That's all for now. Cheers, David