From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 11 Oct 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) Subject: Those damn Kitori and Arkati, still Message-ID: <199410110452.MAA04852@cs.uwa.oz.au> Date: 11 Oct 94 21:04:50 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6557 >From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au >_____________________ >Temple of Black Arkat > >I am sold by Bernard Langham's concept that the Temple of Black Arkat >is actually not a place, but an excessively trollophile secret society of >human Sorcerors dedicated to the extirpation of Chaos through wholesale >adoption of the Way of Darkness as revealed to humanity by Arkat Kingtroll. I don't actually mind this part of Bernards ideas as much as I mind them being closely connected with the Kitori. Even if they have a permanent temple, I would say that they roam far afield anyway, so wether there is a permanent temple or not is not really that important. My big problem is that a human only temple/ branch of a troll cult would probably not remain human only for very long if in an area of very close human/troll relations, like the Troll Woods. But set more in Heortland, I quite like parts of Bernards proposal. >This idea is *amazingly* similar to one John Medway came up with for one >of the NPCs in my scenario "Beyond the Building Wall", which will >appear in issue #13 of TotRM. so amazingly similar, it's gotta be >true! > I have been told that the sorcerer John came up with was a Humakti, which doesn't really mesh with the trollophile idea. >From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) >Subject: Henotheism in Maniria >> You seem very hostile to the notion of Henotheism on the border of Dragon >> Pass and Kathaela. [referring to me] > >When I first went public with my version of Aeolian ideas, I >encountered, well, less than enthusiasm on this list. Apparently >the lack of wizards in RQ2 caused a mindblock in accepting a Malkioni >presence even close to Dragon Pass even when it was clear that sorcery >was right at home in the Holy Country - ever since GoG made Dormal a >member of the Malkioni array, and that _Sir_ Ethilrist is a knight. In >fact, quite a lot of knights feature in old RQ or Glorantha publications >in Dragon Pass - anybody ever wondered about Sir Narib and his company, >from the Sartar magical union? > I like the presence of most of the various Westerners. I like the Trader Princes, the Rokari in Nochet, Richard the Tiger-Hearted, and of course the Black Horse Troop. It is the creation of yet another henotheist religion that I am not so sure about - there is a difference between interesting Western emigres and adding new native Manirian religious sects. I am slowly warming to the idea of the Aeolians - but I am not keen on creating further variations on the same theme for small groups like the Kitori. I like having Westerners - but I am cautious about religious proliferation, especially when there is heaps of potential in the existing religions still untapped. And now, on to Alex [on the Kitori starting as a troll clan that adopted human clans] >I didn't say the other clans would be smaller, or that the troll clan would >be "central" in any authority-weilding sense. But I think that if their >the two have a genuinely unified tribal culture, co-evolution is a much more >plausible origin than post hoc merger. > I think that both are oversimplifications - for example I think that the two tribes might have been allied before they started, and certainly the Argan Argar cult was strong within both (I think that the sacred marriage of the clans was basically an AA power grab, to ensure that they remained powerful within both). I think that the marriage probably happened at the time of the OOO's rule, with AA rule providing some cultural links between the two, and allied troll and human tribes being politically expedient for both. Also - I think that the genuinely unified tribal structure is not some thing that they had from the begining. I think that they started as two separate but closely allied tribes, and generations of living together, and much active work by the AA cult, has resulted in a genuinely unified tribe. The tribal structure has changed from the founding of the tribe, and probably changed significantly in the first few years. [on KL within the Kitori, and wether humans can join easily] >> >I'm not sure either way, but I feel that having all the trolls in a troll- >> >only cult would defeat the purpose of (attempted) tribal unity. > >> There are inumerable societies that have male only or female only >> cults, and nobody claims that that is going to defeat tribal unity. > >Well, for example, Yelm and Dendara have a defined mythological relationship >mirroring the pragmatic one, don't contain _all_ persons of either sex, >and don't act to play up rivalries between distinct clans. > Think of KL as taking the place of Ancestor worship and shamanism among the humans. Understand that in the normal trollish way the powerful Argan Argar trolls have probably usurped much of the KL/ Karrg position as ruler and warrior religion, though KL is still important as mother of trolls. >> > Or maybe we should just (cop out by) >> >say(ing) that they all worship Kitor, a ancestral/founder deity with lots >> >of AA-like surface darkness magic. > >> Much too dull. There are enough founder deities around (though a >> married pair if founder deities is bearable). > >That's an non-objection; I could equally well say there are enough Argan >Argar and Kyger Litor worshippers around already. You were the one who said it was a cop out! I was merely agreeing with you, and pointing out that there are slightly more interesting options. > I'm thinking of something which has KL-style "ancestor" >worship shades to it, as well as being a founder cult per se. This is >a cop out in the sense of effectively "relabelling" religious strands to >be more acceptable to all. > I like this idea, but I am unsure why you need a single founder deity to make it work. Even just changing your concept to two founding heroes (a male clan chief, as befits the generally patriarchal Sartarites, and a troll ancestress, as befits the matrilineal trolls) makes it a lot more palatable to me. Among the trolls, a relatively small change from standard KL worship, among the humans not much different to ancestor worship and perhaps even restricted to the Chiefs clan. [on wether accepting humans without 'adoption' would make the Kitori heretics] >Since to the vast majority of trolls, being in the same tribe as a human >would be unthinkable (most trolls don't even have tribes, mind you), citing >the attitudes of standard-issue KL cultists is not convincing reasoning. Look at page 39 of Uz Lore, which consists mostly of a list of troll tribes - most trolls do have tribes, generally springing from a common ancestress. The Kitori allow human clans, but apart from that are probably organised on relatively conventional lines. From the point of view of the Elder Kin of Dagori Inkarth, I think trolls allowing humans into their tribe is their mistake, and their foolishness, and welcome to it, though many other clans are closely allied with non-uz as well - mostly Dark Elves or various intelligent arthropods. But allowing humans into the KL cult is vile - even the greatest humans, like Arkat, where required to undergo the adoption. I wouldn't want those folks mad at me. >Note that "creatures of darkness" can be non-excrutiatingly initiated into >KL, into which category the Kitori uz may place their fellow "darkmen". > I acknowledge this possibility, and if the Kitori humans claim descent from a troll, then they might get away with it. I think that they claim descent from a darkness worshipping human who married a troll queen. >> And note that the clans do not intermix that much - a clan is >> either human or troll - so as long as AA is calling the shots as far as >> tribal decisions, not a problem. > >Yes, a clan can have essentially "private" worship, and/or have a specialised >worship that fits into the larger pattern of the tribe (a la Elmal clans). >However, if you had tribal level worship of KL by all the trolls, and none >of the humans, presumably all worshipping a common ancestor not recognised >by or accessible to the humans, you no longer have one tribe, but two. > KL worship is a lot like ancestor worshi as far as its organisation goes. The troll priestesses do not necessarily cooperate, nor do they worship the same ancestors (well, they have one in common, and a lot different). I think that all the tribal worship (ie worship of founders, major festivals) acknowledge Argan Argar. >Alex. > Cheers Dave ---------------------