From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 19 Oct 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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Precedence: junk
X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6644: niwe = (Nils Weinander)
- Birds in Esrolia
6645: caille = (Jerome Caille)
- -American Board-English Rules-French Counters-
6646: JARDINE = JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
- Lewis on Rose Tinted Spectacles
6647: Vingkot = Vingkot@aol.com
- ancestor spirits/resurrect
6648: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
- Re: misc. plus some Sandy campaign notes
6649: jonas.schiott = (Jonas Schiott)
- Backing Paul, Re: Arkati and Illumination.
6650: JARDINE = JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
- Mostali Mindset and Magic Methods
6651: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
- More about vessels...
6652: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Sacred Time Chaos
6653: paul = (Paul Reilly)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 18 Oct 1994, part 3
6654: 100116.2616 = (David Hall)
- Death and Life
6655: paul = (Paul Reilly)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 18 Oct 1994, part 1
6656: Michelle_Ringo = (Michelle Ringo)
- Divine Intervention
6657: ddunham = (David Dunham)
- spirits & spells
---------------------
From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Birds in Esrolia
Message-ID: <9410180859.AA28934@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 18 Oct 94 10:59:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6644
Mike Dickison:
>> Birds are uncommon, and regarded as a pest to be exterminated with
>> egg-eating snakes.
Me:
> Why? earth and sky aren't enemies.
Nick:
>Presumably, because farmers don't like birds eating their seed. Look at
>scarecrows. The Esrolite chic of using snakes to stop them is neat.
OK, I can buy that for crows and other wild bird species which eat your
grain and fruit, but how do the Esrolians train their pet snakes to eat
only wild birds and not the domestic chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys
etc?
/Nils W (who happens to like birds)
---------------------
From: caille@tabarly.saclay.cea.fr (Jerome Caille)
Subject: -American Board-English Rules-French Counters-
Message-ID:
Date: 18 Oct 94 12:56:36 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6645
Subject: Les Dieux Nomades
David:
>I just got a welcome parcel in the post - the French version of Nomad Gods.
>This is a revised edition by Stephen Martin printed by Oriflam (who, like
>everyone else, can't spell Stephen's name).
Have you a beta version or is it released yet?
>The two-part map is colurful, though it's on light card rather than the
>robust and heavy card like the AH Dragon Pass map.
This is a real problem, for DP we actually play with the american board and
french counters...Another even more sensible point are the rules
translations(I'm talking about DP): they are full of nonsense and bugs, so the
best way is: American Board-English Rules-French Counters.
Do you know if it's possible to join the two boards in one game?
>I'll have to grab a French speaker and play it soon!
Grab me! Do you want a Nomad's journey in Paris for a week?
Jerome
Ria knip sah erialc tenalp
Der era seert eht lla
Ereht seid reven eno on
Daeh a sah eno on
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Lewis on Rose Tinted Spectacles
Message-ID: <9410181331.AA28021@Sun.COM>
Date: 18 Oct 94 13:19:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6646
Mike
I loved the image of Lunars seeing the World through
ROSE TINTED SPECTACLES...
Cheers
Lewis
---------------------
From: Vingkot@aol.com
Subject: ancestor spirits/resurrect
Message-ID: <9410181036556156272@aol.com>
Date: 18 Oct 94 06:36:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6647
Subject: ancestor spirits
Hello, all.
>X-RQ-ID: 6641 Dave Cordes:
>>Note that a shaman in RQ 3 may bind spirits and force them to cast
>>any Divine magic that the spirit knows (including Resurrect-type
>>Divine magic).
>Wow!! That's great. Expect that our GM doesn't think that spell >spirits
know divine spells. They only know spirit or scorcery spells.
>Divine spells come from ceremonies (heroquests?) that are performed >in
temples. Not from spirits.
In the RQ 3 Daka Fal writeup there is a Random Ancestor Table to
determine the specifics on any random ancestors a Daka Fal shaman
may summon. This table includes Divine Spells for some ancestors
(and specifically includes the Divine Spell of Resurrect(ion) as a
possibility).
--Curtis Taylor
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy.
Send your Red Lectoids to Vingkot@aol.com
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: misc. plus some Sandy campaign notes
Message-ID: <9410181609.AA15477@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 18 Oct 94 02:09:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6648
Lewis had an excellent segment talking about how the different gods
should have widely different DI. Frex, Humakt shouldn't heal. I think
it is a bit harsh to say that Ernalda, et al, cannot resurrect. She
is enough of a renewing, nurturing, healing entity (who was
resurrected herself, by the way) to be allowed to do this by DI, if
appropriate for the situation. My main cavil with Lewis's notes is
that he recommends that Daka Fal not teleport -- Daka Fal worshipers
don't get any DI whatsoever. And they're not the only ones. The
existence of certain deities that lack DI implies the existence of
deities with limited DI. We all know about Cacodemon and Krarsht's
stinky DI, but I'm sure there are many other examples.
> a) Most Shamans aren't powerful enough (IMO) to be able to
>resurrect people via the Shamanic route. But its pretty easy for
>them to join Daka Fal, and gain the spells that way.
IMO, Daka Fal is one of the hardest of all religions in
Glorantha to join. You get _no_ benefits from it unless your own
ancestors happen to have been Daka Fal for some time. Basically, if
you're not born into it, you're out of luck.
In my own campaign, the shaman is an Ancestor Worshiper, and
two of the party members are also Daka Fal. The rest have apostatized
to more modern and useful gods (such as Dormal, Humakt, and Orlanth).
The shaman is desperately seeking new members, since the island that
all the PCs (well, most of them) come from was recently wiped clean
of life by a supernatural catastrophe. Hence, the PCs are the only
survivors of their entire homeland (except for a few random folks who
happened to be out fishing at the time of the disaster). Anyway, this
means that there's a whole heap of ancestors with only three (3)
living descendants.
The shaman has discovered that it's possible to adopt an
awakened herd man into his family, because the herd man has no
(sentient) ancestors to object, so the shaman's own ancestors don't
mind the adoption. Normally, of course, adoption like this isn't
really possible, and blood lineages , or at least marriages, are
required. One of the two dudes who belongs to the shaman's "cult" is,
in fact, an awakened herd man (the player is Guy Hoyle, who is known
to post on the Daily). Anyway, the PCs have come up with a crazed
plan, so deranged I can hardly stand it -- they plan to rescue a
whole herd o' herd men, somehow get them en masse awakened, and then
adopt the presumably grateful rescuees into the shaman's particular
Ancestor cult. What a fine plan.
---------------------
From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Backing Paul, Re: Arkati and Illumination.
Message-ID: <9410181709.AA20180@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 18 Oct 94 19:09:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6649
> Paul Reilly here.
>
> Well, apparently there is a dispute about the origins of the Presence/Vessel
>system. Will people who saw it on the RQ4 list back in the first half
>of 1993 back me up?
I've seen it in the RQ4 list archives. You definitely have priority for the
_terminology_. As for mechanics, I can't comment, not having read any of
the umpteen proposed sorcery systems very closely.
____________
Alex -
>(CoT, to be picky)
Slip of the mind...
>What Greg seems to think is that the cults of the Dark Empire, and perhaps
>some of the latter-day Arkat cults, had their own "system of information"
>which was like Illumination in some ways (such as ability to detect
>Illuminates, I'm tempted to guess)
Philosophy classes on "Sophistic Gbaji Rhetoric, and How To Refute It"?
>he seems to be rethinking Pelorian idea on illumination, pouring scorn
>on all existing and any possible future rules for illumination (et al),
>and is being very quiet about Arkat cults in the 3rd age.
Oh good, that means I can ignore them a while longer. :-)
>You seemed to be saying, rather, that "some Illuminates might not be either
>Dark-siders or Light-siders".
Yes?
>What I'm suggesting is that it's basically a
>philosophical distinction, and trying to classify individuals by it is a
>bit pointless.
Whoa, that's deep! ;-) You mean you refuse to classify individuals
according to their philosophical beliefs? Or do you mean by "philosophical"
that the distinction is purely _technical_; only names the end points of a
spectrum, or is only applicable to the 'atomary' components of a belief
structure?
( Jonas Schiott )
( Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria )
( Goteborgs Universitet )
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Mostali Mindset and Magic Methods
Message-ID: <9410181720.AA01986@Sun.COM>
Date: 18 Oct 94 16:27:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6650
WRT Dwarf Sorcery & Vessels
IMHO Dwarfs are not sorcerors, well by that I mean non-appostate or
heratic ones are not. REAL UNBROKEN Mostali use Mechanics a complicated
Magical System of Mechanisms which has similarities with a computer program.
Broken Dwarfs are unable to use this and often resort to sorcery as the
most similar magic system. (I will not detail my version of the Mechanics
system here as David Hall has told me he intends to publish it in the next
issue of Tales)
I regard unbroken Dwarfs as having something like a hive-mind.
In effect this means that all their vessels are linked together rather
than to a deity/fetch/sorceror's vessel. Because of this they can use
magics which would be impossible for a single creature to encompass in
their mind and consequently use a radically different magic system.
This system has (at least in overview) some similarities to sorcery,
which caused the GLs to adopt the belief that Dwarfs use sorcery.
The Dwarfs were quite happy to support this fiction and the natural
inclination for broken Dwarfs to adopt sorcery has further reinforced
the idea.
The hive mind has a further, overt, effect on Dwarfs in that it
tends to reinforce stereotypical behavior. In PDP terms Dwarfs average
their trait rolls with the ideas for their caste. Thus all Copper Dwarfs
will act in a fairly similar manner and only those with the individualist
heresy will be seen to obviously depart from the norm. Individualist
heratics occur when a Dwarfs traits vary greatly from the caste norms and
the hive-mind isolates the individual to avoid contamination. While this
is not the total rejection that an apostate would receive it does result
in a fair less intimate contact between the individual and the collective
consciousness, this impairs magic but does not result in aging. Other
herasies have similar effects (I can't remember them all, but they are
ALL aberant behavious in terms of the MEAN COLLECTIVE PERSONA (MCP) and
are thus isolated to some extent.
Well I hope this causes a stir
Cheers
Lewis
---------------------
From: erisie@utu.fi (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
Subject: More about vessels...
Message-ID:
Date: 18 Oct 94 22:10:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6651
First of all: My apologies to Bruce Mason for forgetting to write his
name in my comments - I wrote as I did since I was not sure of your name
and thought to check it up when all was written. Then I had to quit
rather suddenly and forgot about it.
Second: IF, as some claim, Bruce Mason has snatched someone's ideas
somehow, I hereby forward all praise of these ideas to them.
Solace: Someone (sorry, succeeded in deleting that piece by mistake)
suggested that Malkioni Wizards see the vessel as sending their hidden
self into Solace. Would not that be the same thing as a "normal"
priest's sacrifice of his hidden self to his god - or am I just jumping
to conclusions when I assume someone in Solace are close to, if not in
the presence of, the Invisible God?
Vampires: Liked the suggestions about that a lot. That means both the
simple ones ("vampires spend all the POW they need before they undie") as
well as the more complicated ones (the chaotic Vessel).
However, what is it that says that there has to be vampire adepts
(sorcerers totally committed to their magic)? What infotmation about
vampire magic we has is the writeup of Vivamort in Cults of Terror, which:
A, is RQ2, so it consists of rune and spirit magic.
B, I do not have (whine) simply because I am one of those who began to
play when it was out of print.
When I thought of using vampires in our campaign (the Humakti in the
party decided to go and search for one just because of a rumor, and our
campaign generally consists of the players wanting to do something and me
showing them the consequences) I used what little information I had from
the prosopaedia and stiched together this idea: vampires use sorcery,
yes, in the way living and healthy people use spirit magic. Their "big
guns" comes from their Gifts from Vivamort - powers stolen by him in
Godtime from other beings. The first of these is simply becoming a
vampire, which simply means yoy loose your soul but can steal power from
others by drinking their blood. Each Gift has its drawback, however -
accquiring the gift means you also accquire the enmity of the one from
whom it was stolen, or his relatives if he does not exist anymore. I
never created any list or soemthing like that, but thought some ideas out
for each separate vampire. One of them could Stare Commandingly - Vivamort
stole this from a solar godling at Yelm's court, so the vampire in
question was burnt and demoralized by the sun. He had also gained the
power of healing very quickly - stolen from Genert, so he was unable to
pass ground sanctified or blessed by any earth deity - so he had to run
zig-zag around the fields of the village (Bless Crops-ed) when fleeing
from the characters. The cult of Vivamort knows the secret heroquests
that gives a vampire these powers, and teaches sorcery as well.
Erik
---------------------
From: 100270.337@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Sacred Time Chaos
Message-ID: <941018172930_100270.337_BHL31-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 18 Oct 94 17:29:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6652
_________________
Rich Staats asks:
> There are numerous references to the gods/desses reenacting mythology
> during the Sacred Time (this makes sense in light of Illumination taking
> place during the Sacred Time too).
(Illumination doesn't, any more, but no matter...)
> Do the Chaotic deities participate in this too?
Yep. Reread the Orlanthi myth of the Summons of Evil. When we worshippers
reenact Orlanth's defeat of an Enemy God in a worship service, that Enemy
God is in fact *there*. When we ritually kill it in effigy, it is *hurt*.
Being a good Lightbringer, I have no idea what Chaos worshippers get up to
during Sacred Time, as I'm always kept busy doing my own rites. In fact,
sneaking away from the Lightbringer rites to spy on what evil, nasty, rude,
foreign gods are getting up to strikes me as a highly Chaotic way to carry
on: a way of weakening my cosmos, society, god, cult, etc.
> How vivid are these scenes? Do they just occur to holy folk chewing
> hamasim or are they there in the heavens for all to see?
In the heavens? Hell, we see them walking around in Greydog Village! Kornos
Longbrewer (our mighty Chieftain) looks great as Orlanth, and we all enjoy
chucking the Goat into the fire on the eleventh day. There's no time for us
to be staring off into space, what with all those buckets to fill and conga
lines and feasts and whatnot...
OK, I may be exaggerating a bit. But let's not forget that my Gloranthan
character's experience of Sacred Time will be of the rites he participates
in, which reaffirm his culture's worldview. So Chaos features only as a foe
to be kicked in, the Gods walk in the bodies of their greatest followers,
and *everything* is magical.
____________
Paul Reilly:
> Well, apparently there is a dispute about the origins of the Presence/
> Vessel system. Will people who saw it on the RQ4 list back in the first
> half of 1993 back me up?
Saw it, hell: I've still got my copy of it! Posted on 9th June '93, the
headers say. Is anyone else *seriously* claiming to have invented it? I
thought this was just another Adam Reynolds job: sloppy crediting and a
lack of respect for other people's work.
Let's give credit for any "wizardtastically wonderful" systems where it's
due: to the original authors! For the record, that's Paul Reilly and Mike
Holliday.
Being more optimistic, it's surely better that people are "independently"
running along the same tracks: something we usually take as proof of a
Gloranthan Truth Being Revealed. So, given that Bruce says he was working
at third hand without access to anything you'd written (except by word of
mouth), it's quite a boost that his core system looks so similar to yours!
Guess you can't keep a good idea down...
___________
David Hall:
I speak French, ride High Llama, and kick Sable butt. When are you free?
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 18 Oct 1994, part 3
Message-ID: <9410181512.AA21589@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 18 Oct 94 15:12:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6653
Hi. Paul Reilly here. Of course, ten seconds after I sent my last message
to RQDigest I got a very nice email from Brian Maples straightening things
out. THe situation is under control, and I'd like to thank all my friends
who sent supportive letters. More later, perhaps - must grade now.
SOrry about any confusion - the time lag on the Daily leads to misunderstand-
ings
-Paul Reill
y
---------------------
From: 100116.2616@compuserve.com (David Hall)
Subject: Death and Life
Message-ID: <941018205024_100116.2616_BHG74-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 18 Oct 94 20:50:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6654
Lismelder Humakti:
I don't really understand Alex's objections.
In the Lismelder tribe Humakti only have a role at the tribal level. They
don't have any loyalty to clan - beyond contractual obligations and
left-over family loyalty. They serve the king and the tribe.
So, it would be extremely unlikely for a Humakti to become a chieftain.
But, I don't see anything wrong with this? The Humakti's role is not that
of community leader, i.e. part-time judge, jury, farmer, herdsman,
craftsman, warrior, politician and leader. The Humakti is pure and simply a
warrior.
When the tribal king is chosen he must become an initiate of the Humakti
Temple and this allows him his authority over the Humakti and presumably
initiates him into their importance and role. This tradition goes back to
Indrodar who was the first to set this up.
In the past King and temple have argued about what is good for the tribe
and so the temple should not simply be seen as the king's lackeys - though
their fanatical loyalty to kings is well attested. Also, there have been
Humakti kings chosen in the past, usually in time of war.
But the basic fact is that chieftains, kings and queens are 85% of the time
from an Orlanth & Ernalda background and not from a Storm Bull, Humakti,
Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy background. As Orlanth and Ernalda are the
rulers of the pantheon so are their worshippers the rulers of the clan and
tribe.
Orlanthi Marriage:
We've had one or two in the Lismelder campaign. I use as a basis the
Lightbringer model from the last Biturian Varosh entry in Cults of Prax.
An Orlanthi priest officiates, but the couple also receive sponsorship and
gifts from Lightbringer representatives. I think Fleshman was represented
by a drunk from the Greydog Inn. I'm not sure what he gave, or if he just
threw up.
For most clan marriages the Lightbringers are represented by important
Household or Clan figures, but it makes the marriage luckier if you can get
real priests and priestesses or important people. In one marriage they had
a friendly duck Issaries Goldentongue turn up and an Ernaldan priestess
they'd helped. You also get better gifts from those who owe you or are good
friends!
I'm also toying with the idea that these people also act as
Godfathers/mothers to the marriage. If there is trouble then either partner
can go to one of the sponsors of their marriage to get guidance. The
sponsors are honour bound to help. So if the king sponsors your marriage
you can maybe stretch things a bit and ask for help against a pesky
neighbour.
Of course, it cuts both ways when you have sponsor someone else's marriage.
Which gives me some ideas for the next game session...
Cheers,
David
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 18 Oct 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <9410190055.AA26056@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 19 Oct 94 00:55:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6655
About Sacred Time and Chaos:
I play that the Sacred Time rituals may attract opponents, who manifest
in a very real way. If there are no Chaos creatures clos to your
community, there is still some chance that Chaos will make use of the
local outlaws, etc. to disrupt the Sacred Time re-creation of the world.
:q
--
Paul Reilly, Department of Physics and Astronomy
University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh PA 15260 (USA)
E-mail: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
I'm in Pittsburgh. Why am I here?
-- Harold Urey, Nobel Laureate
---------------------
From: Michelle_Ringo@ed.gov (Michelle Ringo)
Subject: Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <9409187824.AA782497547@ed.gov>
Date: 18 Oct 94 14:25:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6656
Divine Intervention --
Usually, we only get one divine intervention per encounter,
which can involve trying to heal everyone or send everyone
home, etc. However, the God/Goddess can only "see" those
worshipping him/her and those from associated cults. This
encourages PCs to only adventure with others like them or
associated cults.
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: spirits & spells
Message-ID: <199410190335.AA23292@radiomail.net>
Date: 19 Oct 94 03:35:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6657
Dave Cordes said
>our GM doesn't think that spell spirits
>know divine spells. They only know spirit or scorcery spells. Divine spells
>come from ceremonies (heroquests?) that are performed in temples. Not from
>spirits.
Spell Spirits don't, but other types of spirits can, notably Magic Spirits
and Ghosts (and I suspect many Cult Spirits, a poorly defined term if ever
there was one).
>I'd better be careful, or next I'll be agreeing with Nick and Peter.
Then you'd be Illuminated, since they never agree with each other...
---------------------