Bell Digest v941025p3

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 25 Oct 1994, part 3
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: a pamalt myth, among other stuff
Message-ID: <9410241753.AA22019@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 24 Oct 94 03:54:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6725

Joerg:
>The Stinking forest and the Valley of Flowers are known aldryami 

>territory. Where are their counters?
	I adhere to the concept that even in forests that have lotsa  
aldryami, they wouldn't boast a "counter" in DP terms. Instead, the  
forests themselves would act as hostile terrain -- units moving  
through it would be attacked at 1:1 odds (or something) each turn.  
Even units that were adjacent to it might be attacked. 

	I can't offhand think of any times in Gloranthan history that  
elves fielded what we could think of as a real army. Raiding parties,  
yes.

>The Valley of Flowers and most of the northeastern corner of the DP  
>map have much more vegetation on the Dagori Inkarth map than shown  
>on the DP board. 

	Dagori Inkarth is almost completely barren. A region of thin  
brush that would be considered clear terrain on the DP map is worth  
noting as "heavy vegetation" in Dagori Inkarth.

I fear it's times for another Pamaltelan Myth. (As are most  
Gloranthan myths, I openly confess that this one is based on an  
Earthly tale.) While this myth is not directly about Pamalt, it is  
about one of his family. 


ARTMAL'S BATTLE WITH CRONISPER
	In the very old times, before Artmal was crippled in his  
pride, he strode across the earth and came to an oasis. There  
Cronisper sat, wrinkled and wise, working his pathetic plot of land.  
[Note: this is before Pamalt took power and let Cronisper live in his  
tent.] "Ho!" said Artmal. "I am ruler of all the land, all the water,  
and all the sunlight. Since your crops use my land, my water, and my  
sunlight, you must give me half of your crop."
	"This does not seem very fair," whined Cronisper. "I must do  
all the work, and you do nothing. But you get half of my labor."
	"Nonetheless!" said Artmal. "All the people from the North  
give of their labors to their rulers. So must you, too." [Note: this  
statement is clearly a dig at the northerners, who have taxes and  
kings, and probably was instituted about the time of the Six-Legged  
Empire.]
	"Well then, if I must I must," moaned Cronisper. "Which half  
of my crop do you want?"
	Artmal pondered, and then replied, "Give me the top half.  
Such is more fitting for the ruler of all he views."
	Just before the dry season, Artmal returned for his share of  
the crop. "What is this?" he asked. "What are all these green wisps?" 

	"That is your share," said Cronisper. "I grew carrots. I have  
piled your greens up in that heap."
	Artmal glowered with rage at the wagonload of golden roots  
that Cronisper had accumulated, and, his voice acid with anger, said,  
"Next season, for my half, I wish to receive the bottom of the crop,  
NOT the top. You may take the top."
	Just before the dry season, Artmal returned for his share of  
the crop. "Where is my share?" he asked. 

	"Out on the field," said Cronisper. "It was more convenient  
to leave it there for you." 

	Artmal glared at the stubble and straw. "What did you grow?"
	"Barley," said Cronisper, pouring heaps of white grain into  
baskets for storage. 

	"NEXT season," said Artmal. "I want to get both the tops AND  
the bottoms."
	"Alas," said Cronisper. "What then is to be MY share?"
	Artmal pondered. "You can have the middle."
	Just before the dry season, Artmal returned for his share of  
the crop. "What then is THIS?" he asked, filled with foreboding.
	"That is your share," said Cronisper. "The tops and the  
bottoms. This season, I grew mealies." [Mealies are a type of maize  
-- 'corn' to us Americans.]

Ian Gorlick:
>I am not convinced that your [speaking to Sven Sievrin] system will  
>be stable in the long run. Simple oppression as you describe it  
>leads to resentment and rebellion. Remember, the armies of Esrolia  
>are still predominately male staffed. 

	Firstly, I see no evidence that the Esrolian system must be  
stable in the long run. I think that Gloranthan cultures are riddled  
with unstable, short-term, short-sighted societies. 

	Second, "simple oppression" does NOT always lead to  
rebellion. You list as examples of such rebellion the Mamelukes and  
janissaries -- they rebelled, true enough, but then they themselves  
set up systems of oppression that lasted for centuries. So clearly  
you can be oppressed without being able particularly to rebel. For  
that matter, women are highly oppressed in many societies, and have  
been for centuries, yet THEY have rarely been able to manage a  
rebellion. 

	You have a good point about the armies being largely composed  
of men. So the question arises, how DO they keep their armies under  
control. Well, I suspect that this is quite possibly another reason  
that their armies are notoriously incompetent -- another way of  
trying to keep them under control. Certainly all the elite military  
forces of Esrolia are all-women organizations.  Another way to keep  
the armies under control is to ensure that the officers are largely  
women. The men need a leader for a rebellion to be anything more than  
a local mutiny. Finally, all the magic is centered in the hands of  
the women. This is pretty important, when any rebellion is  
considered.

T.J. Minas:
>How do small cults survive? Remember, you  can't be a priest unless  
>you have a congregation worshipping at your temple each year.
	First off, I think that lay members count towards your  
congregation -- maybe not at the 1:1 ratio of initiates, but they  
aren't _worthless_. Given this, any Lightbringer initiate (just  
about) can count as a lay member towards Lhankor Mhy, for instance. 

	Second, different cults have different ways of boosting  
membership. Ancestor cults are the most obvious -- dead ancestors  
show up at the ceremonies, and boost membership. But Issaries also  
has the Spare Grain technique, in which all the local farmers are  
initiated so that they can get a better deal at the merchant, and  
they also show up for the HHD. Krarsht, another small cult, uses  
krarshtkids and krarshtides to boost temple quality for its miniscule  
human membership. Trickster shrines don't have real HHDs. Instead,  
_all_ the tricksters who've stopped by during the past year count  
towards the shrine's "membership". 

	Third, members must make pilgrimages to shrines. All the CA  
healers with miles show up at the Pavis temple, and this is just part  
of the cult membership requirements. It's not that big a deal, since  
most CA healers are pretty nomadic anyway (they make house calls). 

	You mention an Orlanth tribe in Sartar making use of Lunar  
help and being forced to allow a Seven Mothers shrine. Then you doubt  
it would get 100 members. You don't think that in an entire tribe,  
composed of maybe 10,000-20,000 people there would even be 100 Lunar  
initiates during the period of Lunar dominance? Or that Lunar traders  
and visitors and immigrants couldn't easily take up the slack? For  
that matter, I could see the Lunars shipping in 100 Seven Mothers  
folks into a little enclave just to keep the temple, if need be. 


>Bryan Maloney
>I don't know why it's the case, but it seems that the vast majority  
>of attempts at portraying Gloranthan cultures with a different base  
>than our own seems to require that the culture be totalitarian and  
>oppressive.
	In the first place, most ancient cultures, by our standards,  
_were_ totally repressive. Glorantha is simply following the trend.  
For that matter, command economies were the norm everywhere until  
quite recently, and even now spread across huge swaths of the globe. 

	Esrolia's been described as an oligarchy. While that doesn't  
_require_ oppression, it certainly permits it, and requires some  
level of control. The infighting and squabbles between the female  
factions also imply the existence of spies, private armies, and  
secret police. 


>Why must we assume that the only way for a culture that is different  
>from our own to survive be that it oppresses a large chunk of its  
>members?  Could it possibly be that people might LIKE living  
>differently than we do?
	Cultural relativism at its worst. Esrolia is reasonably  
liberty-loving by Gloranthan standards. They're far more liberated  
than, say, Carmania, the Kingdom of Seshnela, most Fonrit  
city-states, Teshnos, or the Pent nomads. On the other hand, they're  
less liberated than the East Isles, the Doraddi, most Orlanthi, or  
most Safelster city-states. 


>Anyway, Esrolia is not some feminazi cartoon, by any means.
	This is quite true. All I will claim is that if a man from  
Heortland or Tanisor came to visit, he would leave with the opinion  
that men were heartily oppressed. This would be mirrored by the  
horror that an Esrolit woman would feel, should she visit a  
traditional Orlanthi area.




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From: ABEAN@GEEL.DWT.CSIRO.AU (Andrew Bean)
Subject: Temple rituals: Should the enemies be real or costumes?
Message-ID: <941025162933.200d3c@GEEL.DWT.CSIRO.AU>
Date: 26 Oct 94 02:29:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6733

I like the idea of the acquisition of rune magic and attendance 
at Holy days and Sacred Time requiring the participants to perform
rituals aimed at recreating the feats of the the god(s) relevant
to the situation. However it really bugs me when people start talking 
about the requirement of 1) having actual real 
"enemies" involved in this ritual as opposed to 2) some members of 
the cult dressing up as the bad guy and acting out the enemy role.

The reasons I don't like 1) is that I actually played in a tournament
many years ago where  the group of adventurers in Pavis got captured by
dwarves, stripped of their arms and armour and locked up in a shoddily 
built fortress that was in a large underground cave. The fortress 
had some bits and pieces of battered troll armour and weapons in it.
A bunch of dwarf religious types came out into the cave (obviously this 
was RQ2 where we didn't know dwarves don't have 'normal' religions) and
told us we had "volunteered" to play out the part of trolls in a religious
ceremony (since we were all they could find). We had to repel the attacks 
of the initiates who were taking part and recreating some dwarven myth
and those of us who survived would be given back our arms and armour and 
set free. 

So we had dwarven initiates in full battle armour and armed to the teeth
coming screaming up at us and attacking to kill whilst we frantically 
tried to repel them with our inadequate troll weaponry. We were intermediate
adventurers of 50 - 75 % skill range and I suspect the dwarves were 
the same. I can't remember the outcome but I suspect we survived,
having killed some dwarves (basically due to the interference of a 
third party) and continued on with the adventure.

Now if this sort of thing happens for every important ritual in every
religion think what happens when you scale this up to encompass all of 
Glorantha. Every theist will be kidnapping every other theist nearly 
every day somewhere in your geographical area to take part in a ritual. And 
if they can't find the actual enemy required they will make do with whatever 
is at hand (see Biturian Varosh, in CoP). E.g. down at the local trollhole
the Kyger Liter priestess wakes up in the middle of the day swearing
"What!! Another Orlanthi wants to steal my slippers again so they can
get Darkwalk. They were here only 2 weeks ago!!". Where do you keep the 
broos your tribe needs to recreate the LBQ during the sacred time ritual? 
It also makes travelling extremely hazardous when the local temple finds:
"Whoops we're all out of elves and trolls. Quick, nab those strangers.
No-one around here will mind if they die." 

Also as occurred in the actual tournament I played and in CoP you have a 
reasonable chance of the people who are recreating the ritual for their 
temple's benefit actually being killed in the process. That is a lot wear 
and tear on your congregation. E.g. Hasn't Yelmalio suffered enough
at the Hill of Gold without losing 1 in 3 priests every time the ritual
commemerating his survival is performed (see CoP) (and I suspect it 
should be done at least once a year as part of the Yelmalio religious
cycle).

Option 2) was reinforced for me by my recent trip to Bali where I 
saw various Balinese dances, most of which have religious overtones and 
were originally temple dances. Here they change costume for different 
characters e.g. one dancer played a "good" helpful courtier at the 
beginning and then at the end came on again as the "evil" bird of omen that 
warned the prince of his upcoming death. According to my guide book, when 
the dances are performed as part of a temple ceremony (as opposed to being
done for the tourists) the dancers are believed to actually be possessed
by the relevant spirits and at the end the priests "cleanse" the
dancers of any last vestiges of the possession using holy water and prayers.
An important process. Would you still want to have vestiges of Wakboth
poking around your body?

This makes a lot more sense to me as the ceremony performed reinforces the
groups religious beliefs and views of the world without having to grab
some outsiders and force them into your stereotyped baddie role. Also for
Rune magic acquisition your God did all the hard work to acquire the 
use of this 'power' during the God Time. Doing 'correct' worship is all 
that should be required to allow the worshipper the use of the spell 
e.g. by performing the appropriate ritual. This is of course a lot easier 
in a big temple with a High Priest giving guidance than alone in the 
wilderness. It is why people prefer to worship in temples together then 
alone in the "back of beyond".

Now of course Hero Quests which are trying to produce a more permanent
change in the fabric of reality than a 15 minute Rune magic spell
do attract real enemies and having a Lunar Quester appearing in the middle 
of Kallyr's mini LBQ seems reasonable to me. Or having a Wind Lord steal
something from a KL priestess in order to get the ability to use the
DarkWalk spell whenever he wants or for extended durations, rather than
just for the right to use the spell. However having a real enemy 
appear for every Orlanth tribe repeating the LBQ during their Sacred Time
rituals seems too unreasonable. Even chaos creatures have their own
rituals to do, and which probably have nothing to do with the human
ritual anyway. Why should they want to leave their ceremonies to get
killed in some human temple's ritual?

So I would like to hear from people who have actually roleplayed options
1) or 2) successfully or unsuccessfully. I'm not really interested in
other people's opinions as all the above is IMHO and I really want to
know which option works best in "real roleplaying life (i.e. rolling dice
around a table )"

Thanks, Andrew
PS I have put some terms in "" or '' because they will have fluid meanings
depending on you or your characters POV.


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