From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 01 Nov 1994, part 2
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From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: Of Dorastor and Cradles
Message-ID: <9410311509496453740@aol.com>
Date: 31 Oct 94 10:09:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6809
Devin here:
Elias writes:
"I was just reading in KoS (I know, I'm behind in my
reading...), where Argrath and friends protect the giant
cradle from capture by the Lunars, and a couple of questions
that I had wondered about before came back to mind:
First: Does anybody know why giants send (or sent, anyway)
their babies down the river in cradles? It doesn't seem like
a very good policy - I would expect most of the cradles to go
more or less straight down Magasta's Pool. (Is that why
there aren't more giants in Genertela? ;))"
It seems they are designed to go down Magasta's pool. This from the Cradle
Scenario in Pavis. What happens to them in Hell I will leave to the more
speculative amongst you all, but I believe that some sort of heroquest occurs
which probably often kills the child. But if the child survives, he becomes
one of the few powerful giants like Gonn Orta.
"Second: What kind of wonderful things do these apparently
technically and magically unsophisticated people put in these
cradles that made it worthwhile to set up two separate
outposts just to capture them? Where do they get them from?
Is there a powerful and advanced giant civilization somewhere
that we have never heard about?"
Do not confuse giants for giants. In other words, there are normal disorderly
giantish brutes who eat human flest and walk the Giant Walk to the Giant's
Table in Snake Pipe Hollow to sniff for blood. Thos brutes have little if
anything to do with the more intelligent, civilized, and certainly quite
magical giants (whom I call noble giants) that reside, for example, at Gonn
Orta's palace. It is the noble giants (of whom paragua was one) who
constructed Old Pavis. The noble giants are highly powerful and very magical
people who fill the cradle with an amazing assortment of magical gew gaws and
doo dads, either as toys or learning tools for the baby giant or as tools to
help them when they enter the underworld.
I suggest, for a more detailed explanation, you buy, steal, or photocopy the
Cradle Scenario.
Matt asks:
"I using the "Dorastor Land of Doom" supplement and was wondering if there is
any more information published or on the net about the Tower of Lead, and
Dorastor artifacts."
Well, outside of DLOD, I'd have to say that Cults of Terror is the next best
supplement, with a map and an account of much of Dorastor's inhabitants. I
believe the good giys in that tale fight a bunch of vampires from the Tower
of Lead.
In my current campaign, the big evil badguy vampire elf has taken up
residence there.
Regards,
Devin
Does anybody out there have any info or ideas on this?"
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Teaching spirits sorcery
Message-ID: <199411010353.AA13215@radiomail.net>
Date: 1 Nov 94 03:53:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6812
Paul Pofandt wondered
>What is there to stop a sorcerer teaching some form of spirit a sorcery spell
>and then commanding it to practice the spell constantly.
Nothing (assuming he had a long enough Dominate spell), but it wouldn't do
any good since most spirits can't learn from experience (I'd rule). I
imagine it's also quite hard to teach anything to a spirit, unless it were
embodied.
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From: M.Hitchens@st.nepean.uws.edu.au (Michael Hitchens)
Subject: Population of Sartar
Message-ID:
Date: 2 Nov 94 03:00:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6813
Some time ago someone asked about the population of Sartar. Somepbody
else may have answered ( I'm about two weeks behind in my reading) but
anyway here are some figures I use
Amad
Population: 2,500
Number of Clans: 3
Aranwyth
Population: 5,500
Number of Clans: 4
Bachad
Population: 4,500
Number of Clans: 5
Balkoth
Population: 3,500
Number of Clans: 3
Balmyr
Population: 3,500
Number of Clans: 3
Cinsina
Population: 11,000
Number of Clans: 8
Colymar
Population: 13,000
Number of Clans: 12
Culbrea
Population: 7,000
Number of Clans: 7
Dinacoli
Population: 15,000
Number of Clans: 12
Dundealos
Population: 9,500
Number of Clans: 8
Kheldon
Population: 6,000
Number of Clans: 5
Kultain
Population: 9,000
Number of Clans: 7
Lismelder
Population: 7,000
Number of Clans: 6
Locaem
Population: 8,500
Number of Clans: 7
Malani
Population: 9,000
Number of Clans: 8
Princeros
Population: 6,000
Number of Clans: 5
Sambari
Population: 4,000
Number of Clans: 3
Torkani
Population: 6,500
Number of Clans: 5
Tovtaros
Population: 4,500
Number of Clans: 5
Tres
Population: 3,000
Number of Clans: 3
Vantaros
Population: 6,500
Number of Clans: 6
Sun Dome County
Population: 7,000
Telmori
Population: 10,000
Number of Clans: ??
Durulz
Population: 9,000
Number of Clans: 9
There are seven cities in Sartar
Bold Home 8,000 (Large City)
Alda-chur 4,000 (Medium City)
Alone 1,000 (Small City)
Jonstown 2,000 (Small City)
Wilmskirk 1,500 (Small City)
Swenstown 1,500 (Small City)
Duck Point 1,000 (Small City)
I know I have propably been Gregged all over the place, but at least they
are something.
Just a few notes.
I have assumed that the 180,000 figure given in the Genertela book
includes the Sun Domers (as I can not see where else they would be included).
The 10,000 Ducks are in the Durulz "tribe" total and Duck Point. I have
assumed the population of Duck Point is almost wholly Duck.
The figures for Bold Home and Alda-Chur fall within the ratings for thier
sizes as given on the map of Dragon Pass in the Genertela book.
The figures for Alone, Jonstown, Wilmskirk and Swenstown are really dodgy.
I don't think the population of Clearwine (~1500) as given in KoS and the
population of Sartar in the Genertela book (180,000) can both be correct.
On the map in the Dragon Pass boardgame there are about 16 stockades
(including Clearwine) in the region covered by the 180,000 figure, as
well as the six cities (not counting Duck Point as I don't think its
population counts towards the 180,000). Now given that Glorantha is
supposed to run on a maximum of 10% urbanisation, where unrbanisation is
anything bigger than a village, that only leaves 18,000
for the towns and cities of Sartar. The map says Bold Home is
a large city (6,000 - 25,000) and Alda Chur is a medium city (2,000 - 8,000)
The absolute minimum for these two cities is a total 8,000. I have
pegged it at 12,000 to be reasonable. But that leaves 6,000 people for 4
cities and 16 "stockades". I decided to fiddle it a bit and not count
the stockades as "urbanisation". I justified this (weakly) by claiming
that the cities of Saratr are not really as urbanised as elsewhere -
being very spread out and having vegetable plots for each household (I
seem to remember that from somewhere). Remember that Sartar built the
walls first. I assuming that they have nowhere near filled up.
I assume that the stockades are a maximum of 500 each. That gives less
than 8000 total for them (which means I think Clearwine is overestimated
by a factor of at least 3 in KoS, unless Greg wants to tell us that
Sartar has a population of about ~500,000 - or the 180,000 is adults only).
Note also that new Pavis is bigger than anything in Sartar other Boldhome
or Alda-Chur. I certinaly did not expect that when I started. I also
thknk it is quite a different city, depsite being built by Sartarites.
The buildings may be similar, but they are much more densely packed,
having less room within the walls per person.
Anyway, I hope this is useful to someone. Comments and opinions welcome,
I'd really like to get something reasonable
Michael
--------------------------------------
Michael Hitchens
Lecturer, Dept. of Computing
University of Western Sydney Nepean
PO BOX 10 Kingswood NSW 2747
Australia
michael@st.nepean.uws.edu.au
--------------------------------------
All that we do or seem
Is but a dream within a dream
---------------------
From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: Big weekend catchup
Message-ID: <9410311732.aa10272@uk.ac.ed.castle>
Date: 31 Oct 94 17:32:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6807
Lots of stuff to talk about from the weekend.
sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) says :
> This was done because Greg felt that the traditional Allied
>spirit, who let you use its INT and its MPs, and could cast spells,
>was very powerful, and should be considered (one of) the most useful
>spirits available. Note that none of the garden-variety spirits left
>in RQ III can do all those cool things.
Apart from making good sense ballance-wise, it reafirms the special
and personal relationship with a fetch/allied spirit/familiar. Re. my
previous posting about the nature of these spirits, wherever we think
they come from orriginaly, once linked to a character they become part
of that character in a way no other spirit can. (IMHO)
>>But the junior leaders (the ones who are at the sharp end) had
>>better be really big strong girls
> I think they just have to be smarter or have control over the
>magic. Mutineers aren't often suppressed by the officers being
>physically stronger than their men.
The use of elite male warrior units as 'poliece' to rapidly suppress
dissent is another possibility. In historical times such units were
often composed of foreigners - The Praetorian Guard (germans), the
Ottoman's Jannisaries (Bulgars). Skipping nimbly out of context, does
the Lunar Emperor have such a guard unit?
(Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland) cheats again by replying to my post
in the same issue of the daily, saying:
Me :
>>I have been thinking about deities in their
>>role as parent figures, super-adults.
Henk:
>There's a word for that: role-models.
Ok how about this :
1. Ancestor worship - Primacy of personal lineage and ancestry
as defining one's place in the world.
Society = Family. Revere one's elders
2. Theism - Clan and Tribal relationships become important,
sense of community beyond the immediate family.
Gods represent cultural role-models. The rise of
a noble class. Revere one's betters.
3. Malkionism - Belief in a universal god, the concepts of
history and mythology sepparate. The rise
of a ruling bureaucracy. Revere whoever
you are told to.
Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz says :
>I think we tend to unconsciously grant men too much importance, being
>mostly men on the Daily and living in moderately patriarchal countries
>(though we're far from sexixt pigs, as the well-considered debate generated
>by Michelle Ringo's complaint a few months ago showed). In the last
>question, I found myself thinking "Oh, but the traders will be Argan Argar
>men, and the sailor Dormal men, and so on". But if that's so, who's keeping
>house?
Some very good points here. It is difficult to switch mind sets over to a
matriarchal way of thinking. However, the Trolls are matriarchal and how
many female trolls do you see running around adventuring? Troll biology
and culture is very different - but as you say later, we can't just swap
male and female roles.
BTW, I think Esrolite in a Nick Brookism. Rhymes with Israelite.
watson@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson) says :
>Yes, but I thought these were just features of the different binding
>enchantments rather than differences in the way the spirits worked. You
>can't use the MP of a bound Intellect Spirit because that's not what
>Bind Intellect Spirit is meant to do. I imagine it is magically possible to
>discover a new method of binding Intellect Spirits so you can use their MP
>instead of their INT;
That only takes into account bound spirits. Remember, these spirits can
also be put into a shaman's fetch. In this case there is not binding
enchantment to determine what the spirit can do, so it comes down to
the nature of the spirit itself.
(Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty) comments on my belief that familiars are
an awakened part of the shaman's conciousness :
>I believe that to be the case for the shaman, but an allied spirit as
>far as I'm aware is a spirit sent down and a Familar is really the
>sorcerer's will imposed on a piece of nature. I'm unsure about the
>mythological rationalization for the familiar in Glorantha.
If we gathered a shaman, priest and wizard together and asked them
what each though a fetch, allied spirit and familiar was, I wonder
what answers we would get?
My contention that familiars and allied spirits are, at least in part,
drawn from the magician's psyche has some merit. In the case of a
familiar, the wizard must sacrifice permanent characteristic points in
it's creation. Theists must sacrifice POW and MPs to their god, though
the link between these specific sacrifices and the manifestation of an
allied spirit is not so direct.
The rules for fetches are prety clear. The fetch only gets POW that the
shaman sacrifices to it. The familiar/allied spirit situation is not so
clear, but to what extent is this a distortion due to our requirement
for simple and convenient rules? I believe the game mechanics are a
serious impediment to our understanding of the magical processes of
Glorantha.
>The Invisible God IMO owes more to Islam and Greek philosophiocal
>(gnostic, pythagorean) concepts than to medieval ones.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. The runes would be analogous to the
platonic ideal forms.
>..'To enable your soul to ascend to the Solace beyond the Material
>World, you must take one small cute furry creature and enslave it to
>your will.' The familiar concept sees to have been stolen from Ompalami
>Fonrit and spread elsewhere across the world by the God Learners IMO.
Not so sure. From memory, I think the create familiar spell says you
have to befriend the creature first. Implying to me that you need it's
tacit consent (to whatever extent a fixed INT creature can give consent).
I think of it as the wizard allying himself with nature (animals) or the
supernatural (spirits).
>I must really say that I think the Spell Teaching spell to be a bit
>too Shamanic in concept for all religions. ...
Peter offers some interesting ideas. All the spells and forms of magic
in RQ could do with a bit more personalisation. I would realy like to
see a magic suplement for Runequest/Glorantha, it would be invaluable.
That is the part of RQAIG/RQ4 that I was looking forward to.
(David Dunham) says :
>BTW, nearby is "The fetch cannot manifest if the shaman is not
>discorporate." Thus, fetches are not like allied spirits. They cannot cast
>spells while the shaman is in his body. And since in the description of
>Second Sight, the fetch's POW is added to a shaman's, rather than being
>treated as a separate POW source, fetches aren't independent spirits.
Interesting, I'll read up on this tonight.
(PAUL POFANDT) says :
>On the subject of sorcery...
>How is it taught. Where does it come from? Spirit magic comes from
>spirits, Divine comes from the gods, where does sorcery come from?
>Is it a written from of knowledge? If so, that would imply a
>fairly wide distribution of the 'common' or 'utility' spells.
Just because it is written does not imply wide distribution. Remember,
there is no printing press in Glorantha (Dwarves excepted?). Written
material will be extraordinarily valuable, especialy on such arcane
subjects.
Phew, a big post. Probably my bigest to date. I'll try to be more
succinct in future.
Simon Hibbs
yfcw29@castle.ed.ac.uk