From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 04 Nov 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
---------------------
From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: Divers Things
Message-ID: <01HJ0T7DHSN6A10OPK@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 3 Nov 94 12:50:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6843
Richard Ohlson:
===============
Subject: Orlanth and his Temples
>Are the Lunars right when they say that they have defeated
>Orlanth when they nab Whitewall, or is this just Moonie PR?
Mostly Moonie PR. But then most of the info on this comes from Sartarite
Sources.
>A lot of the Glorantha literature seems to imply that many Orlanthi
>switch cults when the Lunars show up. I allways figured this was a
>little bizare.
Not quite. They switch their worship to Barntar the Plower. Since he has the
same values as does Orlanth, the Orlanthi merely becomes inactive and the
Spirits of Reprisal look eslewhere.
>Or does the fall of Whitewall symbolize the end of Orlanth. Does he
>suddenly stop answering Divine Intervention calls, ignore Divinations,
>not grant Divine Magic, or even fail to accept magic points on Windday?
The Temple of Orlanth in Ralios do not seem to mind...
Michael Hitchens:
=================
>Some people seem to be of the opinion that Elmal and Yelmalio are the same
>entity, some say they are not. Could anyone who believes they are not tell me
>if worshippers who switched from Elmal to Yelmalio were visited by Elmal's
>spirits of retribution? If they were not, why not?
The best way to look at it (I supose) would be to introduce the concept of
Heresy in Glorantha. The Elmali worship This Sun Dude in one way and the Sun
Domers worship him in another. Each are convinced that they alone are the
right way to worship this Sun Dude and the others are pinko subversive
communist pig dogs. Worshipping This Sun Dude in the manner of the evil scum
sucking Catfish Hsunchen will lead to blindness, increased prevalence of
masturbation, fluoridation of the Water Supply and the End of the World as We
Know It.
>Some people try to say the question can not be answered. To those I ask, why
>can not a Yelmalio Priest use divination to find out if the Elmal worshippers
>are worshipping the same god? Remember that the important part of divination
>is that the god *only knows what its worshippers know*. So such a divination
>should work, either by a "yes", because they worship me (Yelmalio) or a "no",
>because I (Yelmalio) know nothing about them so they can not worship me.
Heresy is in the eye of the priest who asks the question. Strictly speaking
you cannot know the motivation of the person of whom you're asking about. You
can ask if he places the Solar Disc Upside Down or says 'Wind is Good' and draw
conclusions thereby.
>Yelmalio as son of Yelm:
>Conservative Dara Happans seem to be trying to deny that Yelmalio is the son
>of Yelm. Does the fact that Yelmalio gets a sunspear from Yelm (as per
>associate cults in his description in Sun County) indicate that they have
>little chance of proving their point?
He's a thief! Burn him!
The Yelmalio worshippers are also worshipping Yelm. However because of their
gross and impure natures, only the High Priest can get any benefit.
>If two Dara Happan Rune Priests of Yelm, one who believes Yelmalio is not
>the son of Yelm and one who does, both cast Divination asking Yelm "Is
>Yelmalio your son?" will they get the same answer (yes?) or will they be
>answered according to their own beliefs?
Very Tricky Question! IMO both would recieve the Answer Yes and the
Conservative will rationalize it by saying that Yelm's father was really
the Dragon Berneel Arashagern ('Divine "Seed" of Yelm') and that worshipping
him is just as good as worshipping Kazkurtum (the Black Sun). It is not in
the Canon of the Proper Suns to Worship and so all who do should be caponized.
>If the later, just what are the gods exactly? Nonexistent? Schizophrenic?
>Do they exist as identifiable entities at all? Are they completely at the
>mercy of their worshippers?
You some kind of God Learner?
>What about a priest who is unsure and has asked his god for guidance?
What? "what are Gods exactly?" ZingZingZing! :)
>If on the other hand the conservatives "prove" that Yelmalio is not the son
>of Yelm, would that mean that Sunspear would no longer be available to
>Yelmalio cultists? Anywhere?
Conservatives do not need to "prove" coz it stands to reason. They can quest
to pollute Yelmalio thus his worshippers will no longer gain any benefit of
worshipping Yelm for the Sun Spear but this is easier said than done.
>A little more on the nature of gods:
>Did Monrogh really make a god (as per the heading in KoS)?
No. The heading was placed there by Jalk of Dekol who was writing many years
after the Event.
>Even Nysalor and
>the Red Goddess weren't made, just re-born. So is it actually possible
>to "make" a god, or are all such attempts doomed to failure, such as Zistor?
The Orlanth view on the making of Zistor is probably incorrect as it reflects
a bias against the worship of new gods. After all it is no surprise that
Nysalor and the Red Moon also have this defect...
>OK, enough on Elmal/Yelmalio:
>People were discussing the attitude of a Storm Bull community in Ralios to the
>Block. Would they even know of its existence?, someone asked. What would be
>their central myths?
IMO (although David Dunham is probably more qualified than I in this area)
No. Urox outside Prax is merely a companion of Orlanth in the myths. They
seem him as a Bull whom Orlanth looses against Chaos but at other times uses
him as a stud. The Myths would probably go along the lines of 'And Orlanth
said, smite such and such a Broo. Urox snorted and the Broo crapped in his
pants and fell over dead. And Orlanth was pleased...' They would know of the
Fight with the Devil in Ceremonial chants but it would be skewed to their view
of the bull. Such as '...At the end of the world, where nothing lives, Urox
slew Wakboth and Ragnaglar, To the shores of the Great Ice He slew...'
>Myths and Heroquests:
>Mythical truth is represented by the state of the godplane (YES/NO)
>Glorantha's myths are continually being acted out on the Godplane. (YES/NO)
>These myths can be altered (via heroquesting) so what was the state of the
>GodPlane yesterday may not be true today. (YES/NO)
Yes to all three. It's a wee bit more complicated...
>For example, even if, for arguments sake, Elmal and Yelmalio were originally
>different entities, could sufficient successful heroquesting could "prove"
>that they were the same? (YES/NO)
The closest I know of to this is Caladra and Aurelion who were turned into
twins. See their cult in ToTRM#7.
>Another example: everyone knows that Magasta led the seas into jumping into
>the hole formed when the Spike exploded. I seem to remember reading somewhere
>that Humakt also fought the monster in the hole. Could I (in theory, if I was
>a great heroquester) prove that Humakt commanded and lead the fight of the
>water spirits. Magasta may have been the chief of the water spirits, but
>Humakt was the leader, Magasta just his lieutenant. (YES/NO)
Two seperate myths here. Humakt slew the Gaping Void with the True Sword.
This turned it into the Stagnation whom Magasta overcame. If a Sword seeks
help from Waterspirits in the HQ, he will be warping the characteristics of
the waterspirits.
BTW Humakt doesn't have any friends. The Death Rune is that of Seperation.
He has no Kinship ties or Associate Gods because that is Antithetical to his
nature. So if a Sword managed to get Magasta as a associated cult, IMO he
would lose reuable Sever Spirit at the very least.
>Could I make this mythological truth for everyone, not just Humakti? (YES/NO)
Give me a pivot and a lever and I shall Move the Earth...
>If I did that, would it then have always been that way? (ie would there be any
>perception that the previous myths were "wrong" when they were written but
>now "we" have the correct ones.) (YES/NO)
No. The God Learners managed to 'Prove' (though I'm disgusted at the choice
of the word) that Tanian was the God of Water Controlling Fire and not burning
water and thus extinguished the Sea of Flame.
>Can the myths (ie the state of the godplane) be altered other than by
>heroquesting? (YES/NO) Eg, if enough normal people believe, does it change?
>(it being the mythical "truth" as represented by the god plane). (YES/NO)
People can really only believe in Gods. They can't believe in certain acts
for the acts have a mythic momentum of their own. To change that one
requires a HQ.
>As I understand it, there seem to be two vitally different forms of
>heroquesting, one where the participant simply re-enacts the actions of the
>god, thereby reinforcing the current state. The other form is a conscious
>attempt to *change* the state of the godplane. >The second form is much
>harder. >Am I correct on these two points?
Yes.
--Peter Metcalfe
---------------------
From: carlsonp@wdni.com (Carlson, Pam)
Subject: Esrolia, Yelm
Message-ID: <2EB9651A@emssmtp.msm.weyer.com>
Date: 3 Nov 94 22:35:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6848
Nick notes:
Esrolia has *never* held its own against outsiders. It was run by the Trolls
for the First and Second Ages, by the Pharaoh in the Third Age. Right now,
in the
absence of an external central authority, there is a godalmighty civil war
going on there, with the Red Earth and Warm Earth and Old Earth and who
knows what
other factions kicking the crap out of each other. Even under the Pharaoh,
the
regional dynasties were always scheming and plotting against each other; and
now it's far, far worse.
Spiff! I had no idea. Esrolia sounds like a hoppin' place! Where is all
this described?
I must admit, my only knowledge of Esrolia comes from raiding it as a
Grazer. The Esrolites seemed quite well organized and distressingly
horseless.
David Dunham's comments on marriage make sense, too - especially:
another extremely important role of marriage: it forms ties between two
families.
Which might be accomplished by marrying sons off to other clans.
Also, marriage is a universal institution in human cultures
Oh, indeedy. But in Esrolia it may take different forms. Perhaps some
marriages would take the form of temporary contracts: "This marriage will
last for four years - daughters to mother's clan, sons to father's, with
option to renew at end of four years..." Just think: Lankhor Mhy would make
a killing!
Said anthro book explains marriage as solving 3 problems: sharing products
of a division of labor by gender; how to care for infants dependent for a
long time; how to minimize sexual competition.
All of the above are important for small families, but less so for large
ones. Though "minimizing sexual competition" is usually a male concern. My
point is that Esrolians would de-emphasize that aspect of society. Or
perhaps ritualize it in the men's clubs described in earlier posts.
BTW, my take on Esrolia is that it can't be all that different from Sartar,
in that they're related -- Colymar, founder of the largest tribe, was
Esrolian [130]. Which is why I've said before that "land of women" is
something of a foreigner's stereotype. While many of the models proposed
for Esrolia make sense, I think it's essentially Orlanthi (Theyalan) in
culture, but ruled by a theocracy whose leadership is always female.
Undoubtedly the most defensible position. But does it allow for MGF?
Erik writes:
I assume Pam is a woman... I hope I am not wrong.... I think women may be
perfectly well interested in dominating others, but I do not think that
they would do it in a male way.
I agree on all accounts! To clarify my point on women & dominance, without
starting a whole thorny, flaming thread:
women do tend to compete against each other, especially when men are around.
But if you look at females in a society, (of ground squirrels, elephants,
baboons, or humans), they tend to stick together in large groups and help
out their female kin, while males try to drive off other males and keep as
many females to themselves as possible). Based on biological differences,
each has a very different strategy for success, and a set of correspondingly
different behaviors. Still, I doubt Esrolia would become too oppressive to
men, because mothers still want to see their sons be successful.
(You'll have to forgive me - as a bio-fanatic I'm practically incapable of
thinking in anything other than sociobiological terms. And as I recall,
some soc'bio came up earlier this year, and we decided that these theories
might be wholly insuited to Glorantha.)
Erik:
"What I'm trying to say is that all these fcitious societies that this
daily is about our own views of the world. You may have some sort of
message, or you may just like one idea because it seems fun, exciting or
whatever, and you turn things over so that that idea or message fits."
There it is! Maximum Game fun! Make it fit what you want to do. I think a
radically different society would be fun, but I don't want to see it a
syrupy utopoia OR a feminazi state. (Still, I can't help but think that ANY
theocracy has a stong potential to become oppressive).
1, I could not help but say this: agree 100% on the rarity of multiple
husbands. I think this is a status symbol - Ernalda herself has it, mind
you, and to me is mostly a sytem of being a member of the Earth Queen
subcult of the Four Corners of the Earth - which means you're noble.
Hey! Wealthy, trendy gals could collect one of each!
POPULATIONS
Nick asked how big a population has to be to avoid inbreeding.
Last I heard, population biology theory (Hardy-Weinburg equations, an' all
that), put a genetically stable population at about 100 breeding
individuals. (For sexually reproducing, haploid critters, with a 50:50 sex
ratio.) That means you'd need at least 50 men and 50 women, all having
roughly the same number of children, to avoid genetic drift. Of course,
with only 100 individuals, a good disease could devestate much of the
population; then they're genetic history.
YELM'S FAMILY
Couldn't resist a Yelm question!
Michael H asks what response a twisted Yelm priest would get when he asks
about the identity of Yelmalio.
Uh - define "son" to a spirit entity. "Son" could mean:
1) biological offspring (not very likely)
2) spirit created by Yelm
3) spirit split off from Yelm
4) spirit adopted by Yelm, and given a favored status.
Yelmalio could be any of these, and Yelm's answer would be "OF COURSE - NOW
GO RIPEN SOME CROPS".
I imagine Yelm would mean that Yelmalio is in good standing in the "fire
tribe", to use a David Dunhamism. (In good standing, as opposed to that
scum Elmal, a fire godlet who joined Orlanth's stead; thus Elmal doesn't get
Sunspear.) Even so, Yelmalio could be totally overlooked in Dara Happa,
because his big events all occurred elsewhere, and there are lots of other
firey candidates for the "Son of Yelm" niche who were locally more
important. (Antirius, Muharzam)
Must work now:-(
Pam
---------------------
---------------------