> > Venerators, the broad mass, do not have magical powers but bestow
> > their power on priests through the community particiaption chart
in
> > HW. This is distinct from theism in that veneration does not
> > incorporate sacrifice.
>
> Correct. The venerators do benefit from the magical powers their
'priests' (recte: liturgists?) are empowered to bestow on the
congregation, but they don't "cast spells" themselves.
>
The venerators (I hatee that word and use congregation) gain blessings bestowed by their liturgist at the ceremonies. They don't have any magic in and of themselves.
> > Saints are like gods but not(?). They are venerated? but certain
> > devotees (?) can gain powers from these saints (via the IG,
right?)
> > Are these properly devotees, and is their worship veneration or
> > sacrifice?
>
> Saints are venerated. Sacrificing to a saint would be pagan
"misapplied worship". Good Malkioni would only ever venerate a Saint.
All the powers available from the Saints come from their understanding
of and relationship to the Invisible God, who is the only God we good
Malkioni acknowledge. Saints are not thought of as "Godlike" by
Malkioni: "godly", perhaps. I don't recall if members of saintly
orders are called "devotees", but I suspect they shouldn't be (to
avoid confusion). Certainly, Saints should be venerated and not
sacrificed to.
>
Saints are exemplars of the correct way (whatever that may be for the Church). In many cases, there is an order which venerates them and gains power through this worship of the Invisible God THROUGH that Saint's intervention and assistance.
> > Does this imply that saints are not as exclusive as theistic gods,
> > and that one devotee may address more thqn one saint?
>
> I believe one could, but there would be increased time requirements
(as with multiple initiation), and it's possible some (or most?)
saints are exclusive. Check out the Magic Rules chapter for Sorcery to
see if anything specific is said there, and be prepared for wholesale
revision in 2nd edn.
>
Saints are not exclusive, IIRC, but devoting to one saint does take all one's time. You can venerate many but cherish only a small number, I think.
> IIRC, Trotsky's Loskalmi manuscript had some new ideas for dealing
with membership of multiple holy orders, but these would all be
unofficial, unpublished, intellectual property of Issaries, Inc., etc.
>
Yeah. And 2nd Ed is supposedly to have a somewhat better way of
handling sorcery and congregations - gives a bit more magic to the
masses, as it were.
> > Do saints have the breadth of power that theistic gods do (number
of
> > affinities, feats)?
>
> They should be significantly more specialised.
Yes. More like hero-cults in this respect. If they have a grimoire, its usually very focused.
> > Do saints act as exemplary models or actually bestow power?
>
> Yes, both.
Both, but they act as the _focus_ for worship. You emulate them and you gain power following in their Rule.
> > Where does this power originate? From the mass of
> > venerators?
>
> No, from the Invisible God.
All things come from the Invisible God. All things return to Him.
> > If you (erroneously) venerated an animist spirit, would you use
the
> > misapplied worship rules?
>
> Yes.
Yep. And it would be a 'very hard to contact saint'
> > Would you then treat the spirit as spirit or saint, mechanically?
>
> Yes. :-)
It would be messy. Neither side would be that happy.
> An animist would treat it as a normal spirit; a venerator could
either obtain saint-like powers from it (at double cost), or
animist-like powers (at double cost), depending on how the Narrator
interprets the notoriously vague and doubtless binwards-heading rules
for Misapplied Worship.
>
Yep. Nope. Yep.
> > What would you do to model ancestor veneration?
>
> Call it misapplied veneration. Pay double cost to get lame powers,
saintlike or animistic according to taste.
>
Yep.
> > Any comments appreciated.
>
> Hope so! Further discussion gladly entered into.
>
> Cheers, Nick
Works more or less for me. I'll post my St. Ussary stuff as soon as we get it tidied up.
Jeff
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