Re: Re: Narrativism, again.

From: Alex Ferguson <abf_at_...>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:39:11 +0100 (BST)

> From: gamartin_at_...

> > "that's narrative, that's not" as debating tactic in what's a "good"
> > or a "correct" rule or rules interpretation in HW "because it's a
> > narrative game".
>
> Well, it would appear to me that a decision should be made in
> accordance with the design principles of the system in question, yes.

This is an argument I see all the time, and invariably the proponent has their own "spin" on _what_ those principles are. It's a bit like this list's answer to the "Great God" debate, really. Give me the power of definition, and a place to stand...

> > Of course not. But equally, you can't have a narrative without a
> > story, or without a setting, and your "definition" ignores those.
>
> No, it does not ignore them.

Well yes, it does, because you produced a purported definition in which they did not figure at all.

> Most systems allow this to happen "by
> accident" in that they are not mehcnaically designed to enhance or
> support such interpersonal stuff, habdling instead the "dumb world".
> But HW expressly uses mechanical rules for relationships, supports a
> free flowing style of character creation, uses a method of hanging
> concrete numbers off nebulous statements - all designed to support
> the kind of interaction between characters via the players.

But HW clearly does both things: it's impossible to see the magic systems, the community support table, or the system of "ranks" as anything other than a description of portions of the world. What I never quite "get" from this "design philosophy" arguments is any over-arching rationale as to which it's "OK" to describe in this manner, and which of them in more "I only need a mechanic for that in so far as it directly affects my interaction with other characters" terms -- other than my own suggestion, that it's done on the basis of _what sorts of narratives it is you want to construct_, and abstracting, or not, on that basis, which is essentially what's going on here. (From which we can make an educated guess that HW expects our narratives to be greatly concerned with magic, somewhat concerned with combat, and no hugely pushed at all with wealth.)

If you're going to say that HW is inconsistent here, and its worldmodelling  aspects are agin its own "philosophy", and it should be "yet more narrativist", then you may be using the term more consistently than I'm giving you credit for, but you're hardly defending HW as it stands, or the net "philosophy" that it meaningfully embodies.

> > By your definition, the ultimate "Narritivist" game would be
> > HKAT!, rather than HW (or Champions), despite being chock-filled
> > with rules elements of the sort I've seen freely derided as
> > "simulationist" in other such threads.
>
> Well, perhaps you could explain which parts of HKAT! you think meets
> the criteria.

If you've read the game, this should be fairly clear -- just compare it with the bullet-points you provided I was responding to; if you're completely unfamiliar with it, it seems a little infeasible for me to whip out an executive summary of the entire game off the cuff.

> But in the HW case, there is a specific sense in
> which Wealth operates - this is not a statement about "right or
> wrong" ways to make the game, but that happens to be how it was
> done. I mean, its pretty explicit, says openly that it is designed
> to abstract wealth so that you don't have to deal with it much.

More precisely, it says it simplifies it so you don't have to deal with "pennies and guilders", as it puts it. It's a big stretch from this to a declaration of philosophical warfare on something along the lines of "here's what a Wealth of 5W might look like in game world terms". (After all, it does give us a rather lengthy table of "here's what something of difficulty to buy 5W might look like in game world terms" type info, which isn't of some crucially different order or purpose.) But I don't want to get into that whole morass all over again...

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