Hi Graham,
You've had some good responses from David and Wulf on this, but let
me just add a couple of extra points:
- HW contests are scaleable and *fast* - try playing HW for a while
(so the players are comfortable with the mechanics) and then running
a game with some other system that you used to think had neat, fast
combat. We were amazed at how slow even 7th Sea felt. You can also
use HW contests not just for a variety of contests measured olong
the 'x' axis of everything from seduction and debate through to
combat, but also the 'y' axis of 1-to-1 up to the clash of armies.
- Missile combat is a problem, but remember that you don't *need*
to use Extended Contests. The archer could be acting as a 'sniper',
for example, and it could be handled as a Simple Contest of the
archer's skill against, say, the target's Dodge, augmented by range,
or whatever, with the Ordinary Consequences Chart determining
results. The virtue of this is that you need a Complete Victory to
kill a target, which I think simulates the heroic aspect of HW well.
This should be made clearer in the Hero's Book.
See you at C02!
Mark
Mark Galeotti
> Dear all,
>
> I am engaged on a discussion of the Extended AP system in
> uk.games.roleplay under the "Heroquest - at Convulsion UK
Convention" -
> feel free to drop in and give your thoughts. Curently it is:
>
> Michael Cule
> Argue eloquently against Extended Contest: 7W2
>
> vs
>
> Graham Spearing
> Think extended contests might be Ok: 13
>
>
> Below is a summary of Michael's well argued concerns with APs and
my
> thoughts interspersed. I wondered if people here could give me a
hand.
> the concerns can be summarised as:
>
> "The Extended contest AP mechanic applies an overly complex
bidding
> system onto a narrative game which diverts unhelpfully from the
flow of
> a storytellng game. Being wounded and using missile weapons seem
to be
> badly modelled using this system."
>
> This may be old hat to you knowing types, but I want to give the
game a
> go as Narrator, and have some concerns over the extended contests.
I'll
> be at Convulsion so look me up, sit me down with a pint and
explain it
> all to me!
>
> Here's the discusson - any thoughts or help appreciated. And if
you are
> over here too Michael - hello! hope this cross post is Ok :-)
>
>
> Michael Cule wrote:
> [Does the HW AP mechanic help make for exciting conflict
resolution?]
>
> > Well, my problem is that in my opinion simulation and
storytelling
> > support each other in a good role-playing game. Let me explain.
> [snip]
>
> On board for all of that. I've never taken the view that just
because
> you use a good simulationist system, that it can't be narrative
driven
> game.
>
> > Now I don't have problems with abstracted systems as such: OVER
THE
> > EDGE, UNKNOWN ARMIES and EVERWAY are all pretty abstract and
not much
> > concerned with the finer points of what sort of weapon you
carry or what
> > sort of armour you're wearing. And I love all three systems
perhaps
> > because their mechanics don't make judgements about what sort
of results
> > they are supposed to produce.
>
> I have two of these and I agree they are fine games. I am about to
run
> a Spherewalker game and was wondering whether to use HW because I
want
> to give it a go, and I thought the more traditional clunky
mechanics
> and dice rolling might actually be preferred by my players. I've
run
> Everway before and whereas I love it, and the less 'serious'
> roleplayer thinks it is wonderful, my hardcore friends couldn't
come
> to terms with it at all. This could be as much to do with the new
age
> background as the system.
>
> > that shouldn't be there. The story-telling aspects are burdened
with
> > this peculiar gambling game that isn't obvious and doesn't help
the
> > players or the GM focus on what is actually happening in the
game world.
>
> This is what a couple of my current players found. I was a player
with
> them but sort of 'got it' towards the end of the HW game that one
of
> my friends was GMing. Suddenly understanding what the AP mechanic
was
> there for, I used it to help accentuate my descriptions of what I
was
> doing. When I wanted to bid high and take more risks I pushed it
with
> the description of what I was attempting. Something had to 'click'
(or
> is that 'snap'?) before I switched from my RQ mentality over to the
> more abstract view of an exciting combat sequence. It stayed
exciting
> for me.
>
> > To be fair when I tried it with my players it was a playtest
version and
> > a few of the bugs were fixed but there remain the following
problems.
>
> A tautology to say that the AP mechanic may only work if all the
> players are comfortable with the game, how it works, and aren't
coming
> with any RQesque bagage. I'm sure you ran the game well, and I'm
> equally sure that I really can't run it with my current gaming
group
> who, mostly, simply loath the AP contest.
>
> > 1) You are not supposed to tell players what their state of
wounds are
> > until the end of any combat.
>
> All abstracted, I agree. I've developed a 'feel the blood' variant
> that gets round this, but wonder if I'm therefore missing the
point.
>
> > 2) There is no real means of changing tactics during a combat
because
> > your pool of APs is based upon the skill you started with. (As
far as I
> > can tell.)
>
> I think here that the switching of skill may force the opponent to
> switch to an alternative defensive skill which they are,
potentially,
> crap at. Although your AP total is based on the first skill you
try,
> you may find the contest swings your way as you outwit your
opponent
> by going for one of his weaknesses. That's the theory. It would
have
> to work for me in the narrative flow, and I probably won't be able
to
> conceive this working until I actually GM the game!
>
> > 3) The AP mechanic simply doesn't work with missile combat. At
all. I
> > fire some arrows at my enemy and because I miss my range of
possible
> > actions is reduced when he gets to me? I can even be 'defeated'
because
> > I started out shooting at him before he reached me? Why?
>
> Because from the musical score and a number of well judged camera
> angles, you've given the audience the impression your a bit crap.
Er,
> no. No, I can't find a way round this one :-). Help someone?!
>
> > If I've focused on combat, it's because that's where the most
intense
> > moments of role-playing often happen. But the weaknesses are
there in
> > most situations.
>
> I agree it has to work here. I also have concerns about the AP
> mechanic. I appreciate it should only be used sparingly, but if it
> doesn't help it won't get used at all. I'll probably have to try it
> out for myself with a new group of players.
>
> > I loved the char-gen and the advancement systems and
> > I'm sure I could have sold my players on the vagueness of the
stats. But
> > the central mechanic sucked little nanny goats (to use the
vernacular)
> > and I would not want to have anything to do with it, at all, at
all.
>
> Thanks for the detailed post Michael. There's such alot of the game
> that I like; it seems a shame to ditch it because of one aspect.
Ok,
> alright already, it's rather a big aspect.
>
> And also to the others of you that have played or GMed HW: have you
> found the AP mechanics to be a useful way of measuring the eb and
flow
> of combat in a fun supportive way?
>
> Cheers