Re: Re: Extended Contest - Argument Overridden

From: Alex Ferguson <abf_at_...>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:25:56 +0100

On Thu, Oct 16, 2003 at 02:04:28PM -0400, Dave Camoirano wrote:
> > Then again, I'm not at all sure this
> > makes much in the way of procedural sense;� as I mentioned before, my
> > personal test of whether something is the 'same' contest is precisely
> > whether the objective has changed -- here it explicitly has, and I'd be
> > very much inclined to say it's a new contest.� Granted there are cans
> > of worms there, but...
 

> Lots. What's to stop anyone (including opponents and other NPCs) from
> just saying "ok, I run away. New contest!" when they're at 1 AP. How is
> anyone going to actually lose unless their opponent causes them to lose
> their starting AP total in one swell foop?

Because it's the GM's call whether it starts a new contest or not. (If you want to make HQ narrator-abuse-proof, good luck to you...) Nor is 'running away' always going to be possible, or desirable.

The 'worms' in question are more to do with possible stop/start contests

• e.g., you run away, but then get caught up with again, etc.

> > Needless to say it doesn't make a great deal of simulationist sense,
> > and
> > is also potentially a recipe for someone feeling somewhat hosed
> > "gamistly" -- if you decide to withdraw from a contest because you're
> > getting a hiding, if your opponent decides to 'pursue', chances are
> > you'll be comparably hosed in trying to do that, too.
 

> That's exactly why it *does* make sense from a simulationist POV. If
> you're getting the tar kicked out of you and are down to 2 AP, you're
> probably hosed no matter what. Don't forget, the 'A' in AP stands for
> 'advantage'. If you're that disadvantaged (backed into a corner, frex),
> why should you be able to just say "bye!" and get away?

It stands for 'advantage' (or dis-) in the context of the original contest, and its objectives. If those are entirely changed, that degree of advantage may not (or may, that's not what I'm arguing) be meaningful in the slightest. It's not as if every 2AP in combat consists of being cornered (or indeed that every situation you might want to withdraw from is combat).

> On the other hand, one of the the big reasons for changing the goal of
> a contest is to give yourself a better chance of winning.

You make it sound as if 'winning' were somehow independent from 'the goal of the contest'; it's not like these are likely to be interchangeable, or of equal value, even.

> If your 'Sword and Shield Fighting' is 3W and you're losing but your
> 'Run Like the Wind' ability is 15W2 (and it turns out your opponent's
> 'Chase Down Wuss is only 6W), you probably have a decent chance of
> turning the tide on the contest.

Possibly, but in such cases it's even more arguable whether it does actually still resemble 'the same contest' in any credulity-sustaining sense.