> >My preference is "no, they can't" Add YGWV to all my remarks, of course).
>
> Well, apparently not just your preference, but mechanically described in
the
> rules, as well.
Funny, that.
> >You can be a member of the Storm Tribe and be an intiate of Destor and be
a
> >practitioner of Kolat and an initiate of Torvald the Alchemist (since
> >that's
> >the closest the Storm tribe has to Sorcery); but not an initiate of
Destor
> >and a practitioner of Waha and a orderly of St. Gerlant (because those
> >three
> >are in seperate Religions).
>
> OK, slow up a minute. Kolatings are animists. So, what you're saying is
that
> here we have an example of a religion that spans magic types?
Yes, at the lowest level. All do.
That is, I was
> under the impression that worship of Kolat made one an animist, and,
> therefore, it was a separate religion. Related to the storm pantheon, no
> doubt (similar to how the earth pantheon is related to the storm pantheon,
> maybe), but I really thought it was separate.
All Heortlings worship Kolat on Good Winds day. If there's not a Kolating around, a theist priest will lead the ceremonies (badly, and wrongly). Heortlings may go to a Kolating for help against the Spirit world, and he might give you a charm as his "aid". If you have concentrated on Theism as your magical system, then using the charm is considered backsliding (bad Heortling, no cookie).
> Now, given that the Lunars manage to do this sort of combining with
aplomb,
The Lunars don't. The Moon is a fourth Otherworld. Details forthcoming in
ILH2.
> I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that there are other exceptions to the
> idea of a single religion spanning otherworld sources (in another way
> Teshnos is another tip off). But, again, it seemed to me that generally
you
> were in a religion that was all theist, or all animist, etc.
No, when you concentrate you're going to abjure all the other magical systems in your Religion, but as an unconcentrated person, you can (and will) worship whatever being you're told to. Religions are *mostly* one magical system, but there's always wierdo deities hanging around the fringes. Maybe just as "Enemy Gods", sometimes more useful to the community.
> In fact, if one is not an intiate, or practitioner of Kolat, but just a
> communal worshipper of the Storm Pantheon, then they'd normally get just
the
> Storm Pantheon addition to the Heortling keyword, right?
Yep.
Well, how does that
> work with the Kolat practice? Is there, again, no core practice, or does
> kolat become a core practice? Does the spiritist then have access to five
> tradition spirits? Basically, do they get an additional "religion keyword"
> as a spiritist, or does the Storm Pantheon one go away? Or do they just do
> without a spiritist keyword?
Kolat is an integral part of the Storm Pantheon. Only when you concentrate does the difference between worshipping a Spirit or a God become important.
> Or am I looking at it backwards? Is the fact that they're in the same
> religion some sort of overall grouping? That is, they're treated as
separate
> religions for the purposes of enumeration, but not in terms of the sorts
of
> restrictions that typically prevent one from from participating at a high
> level in more than one religion?
The spirit Kolat (and Sedredosa) and the various gods are worshipped by the same people, as part of their single overall religion. Unconcentrated people (most Communal Worshippers and some Initiates) don't need to care about what Otherworld the deity they are worshipping comes from. It just doesn't affect them. Concentration changes that, and the Otherworld home of the being *does* matter, very much. If you try to worship Kolat using your Sacrificial Theistic rites, it is Misapplied magic. If you accept and use magic charms from Kolat, it is backsliding. If the Kolating Shaman tries to worship Destor using his Ecstatic Animistic rites, it is Misapplied worship. etc.
> >A single religion, if practiced at the 10% level, won't make an
impression
> >on the worshipper as to whether it's Theist or Animist or Sorcerous. It's
> >"my religion". It's the way my people worship. We don't really care if
it's
> >to a God or Spirit or Saint, and we don't care if its Sacrifice or
Ecstatsy
> >or Veneration. We do what our leaders tell us and that's it. It's *their*
> >lookout as to what rituals they make us do.
>
> I get that. I think that's non-controversial for everyone at this point.
> Basically, if you're not invested beyond that point in any of the
religions
> that you're in, you don't have enough of an investment to worry about
> whether or not they conflict. Principally - certain combinations would
> always be problematic, of course.
Within a single religion, it is possible (probable) that there will be beings from different Otherworlds than the nominal one of the religion. There will be Gods and/or Spirits in a Sorcerous Church, etc. This is normal. The common worshippers (the 10%ers) don't know or aren't interested in those differences.
You don't need to belong to several different religions to have access to different magical systems. A Religion is a set of beliefs plus a set of Otherworld beings (mostly from a single Otherworld). It tells you how the world runs, and what your place in it is.
> Again, the "reality" of Glorantha is that the gods will only allow magic
for
> one or another religion - even if you're a sorcerer, and in another
> religion, apparently you can't have magic there, because that religion
will
> have problems with the fact that you have magic in another. Which is
> internally consistent - I have no problem with that. Remember, I was just
> confused about the rules.
The rules are you can't be in two religions. But a single religion can have multiple Otherworld beings in it. Until you concentrate your magic in a specific Otherworld, you don't have to care what Otherworld the being you are worshipping comes from.
And Player Heroes are about Breaking the rules. You ask about the rules, there they are, right there. You want to break the rules, how and why is up to you. *Can* it be done? of course, that's why we play the game. But no-one is going to give you rules on how to break the rules.
> Well, fine, let's think about what gods showing up would do. Yeah, I think
> that showy magic (as opposed to RW miracles) would tend to make faith
> stronger for the moment it was seen. But what, then, do I think when I see
> the magic of another religion made manifest before me? Well, I try to wrap
> my world view around it. I say, "That Grazer says he's summoning horse
> spirits, but I know that the's just dealing with demons." Fine. But there
> has to be some doubt. I mean, the Grazer seems to be so honest about what
> he's saying. And his whole tribe feels the same. What if it is we who are
> being decieved by evil spirits...
Gloranthans are used to magic. They know about the three otherworlds (they may understand them differently, but they know about them), and how beings can manifest in the Middle World as magic. They won't be surprised that a Grazer can do magic. They aren't saying "They must be playing tricks, they can't really do magic because only *we* can do magic." It doesn't work like that. They know other people can do magic that they can't (and vice versa). So what? "Our way" is still better. It's not faith-shattering to discover that someone else can do magic, *everyone* does magic. It's like breathing. (In fact, Breathing *is* magic, according to the Heortlings.)
> Sure, most people are close-minded enough that they just shove that aside
> and remember what they've been told, demons, demons, demons. But I can't
> believe that some individuals, under the right circumstances, don't
question
> their faiths some. And for those who live with people who believe other
> things for a long time...well, the reason that the Heortling believes in
the
> Storm Pantheon is because he was raised by others who believe. It's
exposure
> that mostly determines our belief systems. Expose someone to another
system
> for long enough, and questioning faith becomes automatic, in my
experience.
> For some. Even some who would otherwise be described as devout.
The times your faith will be tested are not during day-to-day interaction, but episodes where your way is shown to be bad, wrong, or not as powerful as someone else's. Things like the Windstop are faith-shattering. Seeing a Grazer use a spirit charm isn't. Even seeing a bunch of Shamans summon up Oakfed isn't faith-shattering, that's just Big Magic. Let's see how Oakfed likes the being drenched by a Storm summoned up by our priests.
"Constant exposure" doesn't make people who misapply worship change their faith, even though it's "harder" for them to get magic. Otherwise there would be no need to write rules or misapplied worship.
> In any case, you're going to tell me that the Romans didn't have
rebellious
> kids? Or that there aren't any in Glorantha? Everybody always believes
what
> their parents tell them to believe?
Sure, there are rebellious kids, and rebellious adults. But the mechanics of Glorantha make the sort of rebellion you're talking about very difficult. Those mechanics are reflected in the HQ Rules, which likewise make it difficult.
> The point is that somehow it seems like we're being told that a player
> should avoid conflict with their characters. They shouldn't be allowed to
> consider doing something like this because it's not "normal." But who
wants
> to play "normal?" I sure don't. I want my character to be about conflict,
> and discovering belief, and about changing the world through the hero
wars.
> That's what the game was sold to me on the strength of, and what I think
the
> system does best as it happens. What are all of those rules about becoming
a
> member of a new religion about if not to be used?
Did I say you can't leave a religion, or join a new one? No, I said you can't belong to two *at the same time*. Of course you can convert. You can even be converted against your will (Heroquest challenges to prove "Who is the Sun", or "The Red moon does so have a right to exist in the Middle World") and try to convert back.
> More generally, I can't see how a system set up to be so incredibly
dramatic
> constantly has people saying that they should have their characters avoid
> that drama. Yes, we need to know what's normal, as Greg says, so that we
can
> know what's extraordinary. So I have no problem with laying out what's
> normal. But the idea that the "Heroes" that the players play must be
normal
> is so alien to what it seems to me that the game supports that it always
> shocks me when someone suggests that this is a bad idea.
You say you are confused about the rules. I gave you the rules. Breaking them is up to you.
RR
C'est par mon ordre et pour le bien de l'Etat que le porteur du pr�sent a
fait ce qu'il a fait.
- Richelieu
Powered by hypermail