Also, I'm using "Religion" used as a cultural construct - the Storm pantheon is the "religion" of the Heortlings. It includes all their gods and spirits. It is culturally (as well as in it's primary Otherworld) different from the Grazer or Praxian animist Religions that surround it, just as it is culturally (though shares the same primary otherworld) as the Solar religion. It rcognizes traditional enemies both Inside the Religion (Gagarth, Daga) and 0utside (Yelm, Shepelkirt)
I think a lot of the problem has been me using this word in this way. For
that I apologize.
But I'm going to keep using it this way.
> > > Well, apparently not just your preference, but mechanically described
in
> >the
> > > rules, as well.
> >
> >Funny, that.
>
> Why the attitude? I think there's some serious confusion going on here.
I'm
> not trying to change or break the rules in any way. I'm trying to do two
> things:
*That* wasn't attitude. I was involved in writing the rules. I've had long talks with Greg about getting his ideas into rules form. I think I have a good grasp of what they are meant to portray. I happen to agree with most (not all) of the rules as reflecting "Gloranthan Reality". That the rules reflect my preferences (and vice versa) is natural.
> 1. Get clarifications on what the rules are. You've been of great
assistance
> on that point. Many thanks.
De nada.
> 2. Discuss faith, and the "reasonableness" of playing out the concept of a
> character being in two religions.
"Faith" has much less to do with Glorantha than the Real World. There are things in the Real world that we *must* take on faith ("What happens to me when I die?" frex.) In Glorantha, you *know* what will happen to you if you die, because you're *seen* it. You've *seen* Mom and Dad and Uncle Harvey at [wherever your religion tells you they go]. "Tests of Faith" aren't about you doubting that God exists, or asking why he makes people sick when he's supposed to be so kind, they are about your entire belief system coming under attack (usually from enemies outside your religion).
> Somehow it seems like you think that I want the rules to reflect something
> other than they do. But I have no interest in that, whatsoever. Whether
it's
> plausible to be in two religions doesn't mean that it has to be allowed by
> the HQ rules. I'm only arguing the latter point because it was brought up
as
> evidence that the rules were that you can't be in two religions because it
> doesn't happen.
>
> Basically, if the rules say that it can't happen, that's very different,
> IMO, from saying that it can theoretically happen, but is just very
> unlikely. I'm trying to figure out which the rules say.
The Rules don't *specifically* say it can't happen. We didn't think we needed to be so specific. But the intent was that it didn't happen.
> >The rules are you can't be in two religions. But a single religion can
have
> >multiple Otherworld beings in it. Until you concentrate your magic in a
> >specific Otherworld, you don't have to care what Otherworld the being you
> >are worshipping comes from.
>
> To clarify, does this pertain to the "10%ers" as you call them? That is,
I'm
> clear on the point about being able to have magic from another otherworld
in
> the same religion. My question is back to religions per se, can one be a
> Grazer Spirtist, and a Storm Pantheon Communal Worshipper? Read strictly,
> what you say above would say no. That would be something I didn't know.
No. The Majestic Horse Tradition of the Grazers is one religion. The Storm Pantheon is another. You can't belong to both. Even at the 10% level of worship.
The Grazers have an entirely different worldview than the Stormies. All their rituals are different. The Grazers *have* accreted some gods into their religion (though worshipped only by Vendref, and not by "Grazers" per se, the religion of the Grazers deals with Gods like Hiia Swordsman.) That isn't the same as "belonging to two religions".
Kolat is a Spirit inside of the (nominally) Theistic Storm pantheon. He is part of the Storm Religion. You can freely worship him with no problem (ignoring the Concentration rules for right now). He is acceptable (though not *as* acceptable as a "real" god) to your neighbors and the God talkers. Jardan is not acceptable, because he is foreign. He isn't part of "how we do things". Neither is Yanafal Tarnils, or St. Gerlant, or Yelm, or Waha. We know these beings exist. We know they give magic to their followers, but they are enemies for one reason or another (and a big part of that reason being "we don't do that here").
> The rules that I've been referenced say only that one cannot be a
> practitioner in two traditions because of the core tradition limit, that
one
> can't be an initiate in two different religions, etc. Because of specific
> limitations there (which have other ramifications as well, I'm aware). The
> question is whether there's an overal proscription.
The *intent* is that there is.
> If you mean to say that the 10%ers don't "count" as being in a religion to
> some extent, and are therefore not covered by the above caveat, then that
> would match my previous understanding of what you were saying.
They *do* count as being in a religion. They will worship any being *in their religion* during services (remember, a 10%er has no personal connection to an Otherworld being, so they are following the lead of their religious leaders, not doing worship on their own). It doesn't matter what Otherworld that being is associated with as long as it is within their religion. What they won't do is worship a being from outside their religion.
10%er attitude:
Inside Religion: We don't care what Otherworld it comes from, we worship it
when told to our religious leaders.
Outside Religion: Bad, evil, ptooey. We don't worship it at all.
Even beings getting propitiary worship, like Mallia, are "inside" the religion, they are just classified as "known enemies".
> >
> >Kolat is an integral part of the Storm Pantheon. Only when you
concentrate
> >does the difference between worshipping a Spirit or a God become
important.
>
> Agaiin, what I was wondering here was how one could be a Practitioner of
the
> Kolating practice if he had no "core practice," which I had sorta assumed
> came along with the Spiritst of X keyword, given that the tradition charms
> seemed attached to this. I'm assuming now that, either this is an
exception,
> or that the Kolating Practice itself counts as both a Core Practice, and
one
> from which one can get Practice Spirits? This would be an exception given
> that the rules say that one can only get tradition spirits from core
> practices, IIRC.
How do you know he doesn't have a "core practice"? The HQ rules for Kolat haven't been published (I *just* got a copy to look over yesterday!). Until such time as they *are* published, it's not going to do you much good to speculate. Whether Kolat worship is "standard animism" or something different remains to be seen. (I haven't finished the file, but I know that it has some parts to change, because they use old HW terminology and rules).
> >It's not faith-shattering to discover
> >that someone else can do magic, *everyone* does magic. It's like
breathing.
> >(In fact, Breathing *is* magic, according to the Heortlings.)
>
> Well, if magic is so normal, then I'm pretty sure that it won't make faith
> all the more difficult to change. You're trying to have your cake and eat
it
> too, again. Magic makes people more faithful, but it's not impressive
enough
> to them to make them question their own faith when they see someone else
do
> it.
Having faith in Glorantha is more like having "Faith in the Government" than "Faith in God". We can see how things work. We don't have to "take it on faith" that there is a heaven, we've seen it. We know that there are other religions out there, and it doesn't worry us, because we know that ours is better. We can even change our religion's ways if we work hard enough. We can make Humakt into a Bunny-hugger - with the right application of magical power. But we don't need to wonder if Orlanth really exists, and that he really does like us. We've actually met him in our worship ceremonies. He knows us, and we know him, in a much more concrete fashion than having faith that Jesus exists and loves us. It's when Orlanth is no longer reachable that we doubt, and start to look for alternativs.
> Again, I don't have a problem with it even being rarer than in our world.
> I'm only concerned as to whether or not it's possible at all.
It is possible to rules-breakers. No-one else does it. That is the intent.
> >The times your faith will be tested are not during day-to-day
interaction,
> >but episodes where your way is shown to be bad, wrong, or not as powerful
> >as
> >someone else's. Things like the Windstop are faith-shattering.
>
> Well, I won't get into a debate about what's more faith-shaking than
what -
> that'll have to be a matter for individual players and narrators to work
out
> anyhow. All I meant to say was that exposure to other faiths, as in your
> examples, could shake faith potentially. Which we seem to agree upon.
Okay, yes we agree that it *can* happen, but your expectation of when it does seems to be a couple orders of magnitude less than mine.
> Basically, nobody has convinced me that it's implausible to be in two
> religions, thematically, but if it happens that this is the case in
> Glorantha, because the rules say that's the case, then I'd like to know. I
> mean, I could, for example, accept that there was simply something about
the
> reality of religions in Glorantha that made it impossible. Or even
> impossible enough not to allow it in the basic rules about religion.
"The focus of Heroquest is on the story, not the rules." Page 177.
Every rule in the book can be broken by a Player hero. Every. Single. One. Even dice rolling. That means that *anything* is possible. You hero can call up Cthulhu. He can pilot a starship and blow up the Deathstar. He can be "faster than a speeding bullet". He can take over hell and turn it into a disco lounge and karaoke bar. He can roll 12-sided dice instead of 20. Of course, too many changes and it starts looking like a game of Calvinball. But that's 8your* lookout.
One intent of the "religion" rules is that no-one belongs to more than one religion. But Heroes don't follow the rules. So if you want your hero to belong to two religions (in the sense of cultural constructs and worldviews) then go ahead. But MyGWV.
RR
C'est par mon ordre et pour le bien de l'Etat que le porteur du pr�sent a
fait ce qu'il a fait.
- Richelieu
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