Re: Possible house rules on concentrating magic

From: flynnkd2 <flynnkd_at_...>
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 23:20:59 -0000

Just my comments on your problem to add to the heap )).

> I'm also trying to avoid the "munchkin" scenario where a player
> concentrates exclusively on common magic and pours a ton of points
> into a few abilities, gaining a good deal of power without all the
> rigmarole of initiating, passing the devotion test, befriending a
> spirit, and the like.
>



You will always get muchkin players, it isnt so much the rules but the player who is the problem. In every group there is always someone who will read the rules and see advantage in them. Forget trying to solve this problem with rules, its not worth it. Solve it with game play, got out of your way to introduce problems and hudles for the player who is pushing the boundries. Glorantha provides a huge wealth of social and religious sanctions to be used against people who do not conform... and despite all the ravings about 'freedom' in glorantha (Orlanthi freedom vs Lunar freedom etc), this freedom is just as restrictive as not being free.

I have had similar issues with my players. I simply confronted them with the facts of life (how I was going to run the game)and asked them to develope their characters in accordance with those guidelines. What ended up happening was that the humakti who ploughed all his HPs into sword skill became so good that the rest of the party was irrelevant during combat, and they resented this and the 'players' ostracised him.



> The Glorantha.com site notes that this scenario is possible, and
> suggests a number of ad hoc solutions to avoid it, such as inventing
a
> social sanction for characters who concentrate on common magic
> exclusively, or arbitrarily prohibiting proposed specific common
magic
> abilities case-by-case. I am looking for a solution that's less ad
hoc
> and requires less narrator discretion, namely house rules.
>
> (See http://www.glorantha.com/support/hq_faq.html#Magic for the
> official discussion of this scenario)
>
> > My heortling warrior would have to concentrate on theistic magic
upon
> > initiating in Orlanth? Well, since "all" the population is
> initiated to
> > O or E, you've just emasculate Flesh Man.
>
> For the Orlanthi "all" of 85%, that's correct. Somewhere in that 15%
,
> however, there can be someone who devotes himself exclusively to the
> Flesh Man. With the proposed rules, he will be handicapped, compared
> to his fellow Heortlings, until he learns the Selfrock Teaching and
> subsequently maintains it with 20% of of his time and resources
> (modeled as Hero Points).
>
>
> > All they have
> > from Flesh Man (or any other Common Magic Religion) are a handful
of
> > passive magic abilities.
>
> In fact, the section on concentrating magic, p. 108 of the HQ book,
> implies that characters who concentrate on "innate magic" can use
> talents actively. Elsewhere on Glorantha.com, innate magic is
defined
> to consist of talents plus natural magic abilities. So in fact the
> Flesh Man talents and any other Common Magic talents can be used
> actively by expending one Hero Point.
>
> Even if you don't buy that interpretation (it's contradicted by the
> Hero Improvement Costs table elsewhere in the HQ book), a character
> who has learned the Selfrock Teaching can use any common magic
> abilities actively. Learning the Selfrock Teaching is simpler to do
> than even devoting to a deity (half a mastery simpler, according to
> the rules).
>
> > > 2. All Specialized Magic Systems, even the Selfrock Teaching,
require
> > > an ongoing commitment of no less that 20% of a character's time
and
> > > resources, modeled as Hero Points.
> >
> > Isn't that already in the rules?
>
> The Selfrock Teaching at presented on page 108 of the HQ book
requires
> no ongoing commitment, just beating a 10w resistance with one's best
> Common Magic ability and paying one Hero Point.
>


Concentration of ANY kind of magic has no committment. Being an initiate or cultist or adept has a requirement. This has nothing to do with concentration. The requirement is a committment to your faith, not to concentration. You should be arguing that Self Rock has no faith requirements because it is not associated with a religion. In that case then invent a religion that goes with it. Most likely however the player will still be communal follower of Orlanthi and will have some minimal requirements.

> > An initiate has to spend 30% and a
> > devotee 60% of time, cash, HPs and everything else about the
character.
>
> But a munchkin who learns the Selfrock Teaching doesn't. Moreover,
he
> has a wider choice of magical abilities (including abilities that he
> makes up) than either an initiate or devotee.



And this lunatic who talks to a rock is going to gain the support of his clan? They are going to give valuable armour and weapons to a nutter who doesnt accept the communities faith - proven to them every god time. He wont have an afterlife, he has no family bond because he is a wierdo. No one will marry him. etc etc. This is just some of the effects you could apply to such a person. He can get around them by role playing his way into their hearts and minds, but he HAS to do that first.

And who says he can make up common magic abilities (after character creation)? All common magic is taught by someone who already knows it. .. who does he learn it from. If someone doesnt know it then he needs to find a supernatural source, a local diety or spirit who will teach him... oh I have a task for you in that case... He doesnt just make them all up on the fly (well that is one way to handle it)

Essentially if you run your game as a 'players vs the world' concept then Glorantha was some weaknesses. If you run it as 'the players and their friends and their community vs the world' then it is a different game. The players need to build and maintain relationships with various people and forces, the normal people. A player who self rocks will be behidn the eight ball in regard to this.

The party is captured by bandits... who will pay their ransom? Well for the normal orlanthis the clan does... but the guy who talks to a rock... hmmm maybe not.



>
> > I thought that most initiates could only augment from the
affinities.
>
> An initiate who concentrates theism can improvise a named feat
within
> an affinity at -5. If he raises the relevant affinity to 18 (cost: 3
> Hero Points), his rating is 13, just as good as many of his
starting
> abilities. So there's no reason why initiates won't use feats
actively
> on a regular basis, unless the narrator disallows it for some
reason.
>
> > I personally consider your goal to be a step in the
> > wrong direction, but if that is what you and your group want, have
> at it.
>
> I'm not that committed to the goal. What I'm really trying to do is
> come up with a reason for characters to initiate to gods, become
> practitioners, join orders, and the like, not just learn and
> concentrate Common Magic. Under the base HQ rules, there are only
weak
> incentives to do so -- characters can obtain more diverse and
powerful
> magic abilities with less hassle through Common Magic.
>


Players can gain powerful abilties in anything if they devote HPs to it. Your sights are fixated on one problem when the wider view will show you that the problem exists at all levels. See my Humakti eg above... he was a complete mastery above the next best warrior, because of his level I had to use opponents who woudl stand a chnace against him, which meant they slaughtered to other players. The other players quickly got sick of this.

There is not a great deal of differnece between a magical abiltiy/spell/effect and a normal skill used creatively.

-I blast him with my fireball of the Great God Zorba and turn his bones to ashes (Zorba Fireball 10w).

-I blast him with my words, using sarcasm and inneudo to wither away his manhood and make him an insignificant speck to his peers (Sarcastic tongue 10w)

If your magic is doing a lot more than normal abilties do then maybe you just need to tone them down, or liberate normal abilties more...


> I can devise various ad hoc incentives to steer them into
specialized
> magic, such as arbitrarily shooting down common magic abilities that
> players devise, requiring them to join specific religions to even
> participate in the game, and so on. But I'd prefer to create a small
> set of rules that all the characters know up front, so the whole
> business is less arbitrary.
>
> Rob


The more I play HQ the more I come across problems and issues, HQ and Glorantha are a VERY complex system. Most of your problems however are not going to be solved by fiddling with the rules, they need to be solved by discussions between the group, and imaginative play.

My 2cents worth )).

Powered by hypermail