Re: Charms for friends

From: Roderick and Ellen Robertson <rjremr_at_...>
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 23:39:07 -0800

> When you say "Tradition/Practice" you mean very specifically in this case
> "Snake Practice/SurEnslib Tradition" - that's the tradition in this case
> (though I can't remember what the real name of the practice is). So the
> person would have to be at least a "spritist member of the practice" to be
> able to get charms. Is that correct?

Well, I was speaking generally. "Tradition/Practice" means that you have to be in the appropriate group to use the charm. I'm used it as a shortcut meaning "be a member of the tradition or practiuce, as appropriate".

To use a Tradition charm, you must be a member of that tradition.

To use a Practice charm, you must be a member of that practice.

> What about "Tradition Charms," however? SurEnslib Charms not associated
with
> any practice (like "Dance All Day" IIRC). Who can she make these for? Any
> member of the tradition, I'm assuming?

Tradition spirits (Surenslib has Fertility and Great Bog spirits, frex) are put into Tradition charms, and used by anyone of the SurEnslib tradition.

Inside the traditon are a number of Practices (listed in ILH1 page 33) - Peraskos (Entertainer), Shantamar (Farmer), etc, etc. Charms made from a Shantamar Animal Spirit can only be used by a Shantamar worshipper - not by a Peraskos practice worshipper. Shantamar practice wroshippers can also use SurEnslib tradition charms, because they are also members of the tradition.

> Now, one thing about SurEnslib is that I got the feeling that it wasn't
> actually a lunar religion, though I probably have that wrong (and don't
have
> ILH1 with me to check).

It's not Lunar, it's a totally "normal" (HQ-Rules-standard) spirit tradition native to Darjiin

But, let's say it is part of the Lunar way for
> argument's sake, or think Jakaleel here instead if that's important. The
> rest of the group in question is lunar to some extent - still a no go? She
> still can't make them charms, because they're not in the same tradition?

Correct.

> Even if the gods/spirits in question are OK with each other?

Yep.

In the Lunar way it gets complicated....

There are specific "Lunar Charms" available from the Rufus Scripts (the equivalent of the Abiding Book in many ways, but it also provides access to spirits/lunes for charms). These are made by Lunar Preceptors (a lunar form of Practitioner/Liturgist). These are available to any Lunar worshipper (except Devotee-equivalents, who can't use magic not of their immortal).

This will be clear in ILH2

Jakaleel has the From Dark tradition. From Dark tradition charms are only usable by From Dark worshippers.

Inside the From Dark Tradition is the Five Spirit Moon practice. 5SM charms can only be used by 5SM worshippers.

A typical lunar can't use a From Dark charm.

> As another example, a Kolating shaman can't make a tradition charm (if
there
> is such a thing) for an Orlanthi Initiate of Helemakt?

Remember that Kolat is a bad example to bring up, because he's not published - which means that any answer I give may be gregged at any time.

*IF* the (normally theistic) Storm Tribe is considered a tradition (after all, Kolat is considered a member of the storm tribe and has his own holy day, but there are no guarantees), then he'd be able to make Tradition charms for any Storm Tribe worshipper. Until Kolat gets published, I can't be more specific.

Basically we're
> getting into that territory that I was at previously about what beings
allow
> worship of what other beings. Now it may simply be that spirits are such
> that you absolutely have to be in the tradition - but, generally speaking,
> is there some limit of this sort? Put another way, is the Kolating
> practitioner prevented from initiating to Helemakt and learning his
> affinities? Of course if he wants to devote to Helemakt, he'll have to
drop
> the Kolating stuff. But in the meanwhile?

By the rules a hero can be a practitioner and a initate (and/or a orderly or even adept) at the same time - as long as he doesn't concentrate. If he is a practitioner, he is allowed to use Practice charms (or even fetishes) of whatever practice(s) he belongs to. Whether the two entities in question will allow a person to worship both of them at the same time is a whole other question.

> So is there a general proscription against getting magic from "acceptable"
> beings who are from another otherworld?

No (provided you don't concentrate, of course).

Or is the animist one, should it
> exist, specific to animism? We've probably hit this from slightly
different
> angles before, but I feel it's a pretty important topic.

The key is that the animist prohibition is against *anyone* who isn't in the practice/tradition - animist, theist, sorcerous, lunar... A Waha Tradition worshipper can't use a SurEnslib tradition charm (or a Shantamar practice charm), even though he's an animist. A Lunar can't use a From Dark charm

> Anyhow, what's interesting is that the "Humakti" in question is actually,
> from what I understand, "Hum'Akti," meaning he worships the Carmanian
> Humakt. Who I believe is Lunarized, though I may be incorrect about that
as
> well (is the Carmanian Orthodoxy under the Lunar Cycle?).

Saint Hum'Akt is not Lunar. the Carmanian religion is not Lunar (ie, regulated by the Moon's cycles *and* part of the Lunar Way, even though the Red Emperor has a say in what goes on (One of his titles is Padishah of Carmania).)

>As such, if the
> character were, in theory an initiate of Humakt, and, as such not
> concentrated, and part of the Lunar Way, and if the proscription against
> charms being given out to people outside the tradition is meant to be
about
> acceptable gods/spirits, etc...then he might be techically eligible.
> Probably not for one of three reasons in there, but just saying...

Nope. Because just about every specific premise is wrong.

  1. An initiate can be concentrated - it's just not required that he be.
  2. Humakt is not part of the Lunar Way (not even through St. Hum'akt) and SurEnslib is not part of the Lunar Way
  3. The prohibition is against people outside the tradition, and the Lunar Way isn't a tradition.

> In any case, I'm sure that the Darjiini spirits won't have anything to do
> with a Humakti based soley on fearing getting dead or something.

And then there's that, too.

To say
> nothing of the social implications. But the ramifications are worth
talking
> about. How about this one...can a Jakalleel witch make a tradition charm
for
> a Darjiini practitioner?

Well, "Darjiini" is a member of the Darjiin culture, "SurEnslib tradition" is their religion.

Can a Jakaleel make a Tradition charm for a (cultural) Darjiini that belongs to the From Dark tradition? Certainly.

Can she make one for a (cultural) Darjiini that belongs to the SurEnslib tradition (and not From Dark)? No.

>Or, if SurEnslib isn't Lunarized, then how about
> some other Lunarized tradition (I'm sure that Jackallel isn't the only
one).

The Lunar Way is not a Tradition, and so all lunar worshippers (except those that are specifically in the From Dark tradition) fall outside the "tradition" requisite for getting a From Dark charm - they can't have them.

> Or...is this going to be made clear in ILH2? :-)

No, it won't be - because most of your questions here aren't really about the Lunars, but about animists.

My understanding of the "why" for the "must be a member" prohibition is that the spirit just won't respond to someone that doesn't know how to "talk" to them in the right way. Unlike Feats or Spells or Blesings, the magical source for the ability is actually here in the Middle World, and is able to sense some things about the holder of the charm, and can withhold their ability from the "wrong" people. (or, another way to think of it - the non-tradition person doesn't know the right rituals to do to use the charm - he doesn't give it fresh Sunberries every Solstice, or rub it in a patch of rabbit fur every third day, or whatever - those little things that the rules don't cover, but that are significent in small ways).

RR
C'est par mon ordre et pour le bien de l'Etat que le porteur du pr�sent a fait ce qu'il a fait.
- Richelieu

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