Re: How do you compare published abilities without numbers?

From: Chris Lemens <chrislemens_at_...>
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:42:52 -0800 (PST)

Ian replies cogently to me:

> > Nope, that doesn't do it. It works fine if the players have picked a
> > side with respect to the NPC -- either helping or hindering. But when
> > faced with the choice, the players need the information that their
> > characters ought to know. The numbers gave the narrator at least
> > some guidance.
>
> Channelling Greg - Gloranthans don't know the numbers!

No, but they do know that Oddi's going to win a debate against Braggi and Braggi would absolutely slaughter Oddi in combat. That's the kind of knowledge that numbers _can_ convey quickly. (I realize that there are all sorts of other things that aren't going to be covered, so there's a limitation there.)

> Seriously if you wanted to pick someone to side with in a political
> debate at work you would base it on who you agreed with more, what
> your experience was of working with them, what successes and failures
> they had. You would have no idea that one was 10W the other 17W. So
> you would pick based on what others told you.

Sure, and numbers convey that well. If Oddi's got a mastery on Braggi in public speaking, everyone in the clan will know it.

> If it ever came to competition between the two then you risk
> de-protagonising the players by worrying about the leaders numbers.
> Either it is about the players actions and the outcome reflects that,
> or you narrate the outcome depending on what the story needs.

So, take my hypothetical, please:

1.    You're new to Glorantha. (That's the point, right?)
2.    You are narrating out of a published supplement.
3.    The supplement presents a bunch of narrator characters.
4.    Through play, the community in the supplement comes into a conflict where each side has a champion. Let's assume it is a lawmoot.
5.    The supplement describes each champion as having an ability applicable to an upcoming contest. Let's assume that one has "orator" and the other has "rabble-rouser."
6.    The players want to be with the winner. (Or, alternatively, need to figure out whether they need to find a back door and a quick escape route.)

How would you let the players assess who the winner is going to be? Channelling Ian, here is my guess at approximately what your answer will be: First, if this conflict is important to the story, the player characters should have a central role in it. So, they should decide on some basis other than being on the side of the winner. <At which point I smack you with a weighty law-school tome for not answering the professor within the bounds of the hypothetical. But you then go on.> Ouch! Well, if that's not the case, then most likely, the orator and the rabble-rouser should be at more or less the same level, so that the characters can influence the outcome and gain a new tie to two narrator characters, one of whom might be indebted to them and the other of whom might nurse a grudge. Second, if the whole event is important enough, you can play out the process of discovering the information about the two contenders. The players have to go around asking  about their reputations, their past debates, and so on. Those mini-contests might produce truth, lies, or something in between. On the flip side, if the conflict really isn't important, then just make up any old thing. Or if it's just a mechanism to run the players out of town, then let the players discover the opposite of the trust about the contenders. In any case, the system encourages you to be creative and go with the story.

Back to speaking with my own voice, I think that most new-to-Glorantha narrators would be frustrated at not being able to figure that out from the book. Maybe learning "make it up" is just part of the learning curve.

> I'll let you into a secret. I produced a lot of numbers for Red Cow. I
> even had a sim system for them (use the saga rules in HQ1). In every
> contest I just ended up basing the numbers off what the players told
> me thier numbers were so that I could give them an appropriate
> challenge. I never had two npcs go toe-to-toe for any reason. If two
> narrator characters argued and the players could not affect the
> outcome then I just summarized.
> So I'm speaking as someone who went down this route and
> realised it was a waste of effort.

Look, I don't disagree. I think I played in one of your Red Cow scenarios a couple of Tentacles ago -- it was an Orlanthi wedding contest. I enjoyed it greatly. I've also been down the road of trying to assign numbers to lots of NPC's and hated every moment of it so much that I gave up and left blanks that I said to myself I would fill in later. (They are still blank; now they will remain so.) But that doesn't mean I don't recognize that many do find some value in the numbers. I think I've identified a significant part of that value and it's particular valuable to people new to Glorantha. I'm trying to figure out how to work around the problem, not change the system.

Chris Lemens

Powered by hypermail