Hi again,
Just a quick comment before I go to bed:
Luke's stakes were never "rescue his friends" or "defeat Vader" in that contest. His stakes were always "get out of this in one (spiritual) piece." He could have died but still have won by not turning to the dark side *.
[I may be misremembering this from the film as it's been 25 years since I've seen it - as you'd already pointed out my memory of the order of events isn't very good so I might have misjudged the tone of the final punch up and "these may not be the stakes you are looking for".]
Actually I lied - here's another one. HQ2 provides two tables to work out what happened in a conflict. You use the rising action one for most of a session and the climactic one (I may have the name wrong, it's how I've labelled 'em on my photocopied game reference) for the grand finale, where a contest wraps up an situation or story arc for one or more characters.
The rising action table doesn't tend to dish out lasting effects for protagonists who win contests but the climactic one can. My one adventurer death with HQ2 was actually a victorious Humakti Weaponthane collapsing onto a pile of defeated enemies at the end of the conflict. That'll teach the player to keep wanting to play Humakti...
Cheers,
Ash
*By Dark Side I of course mean playing any game with statted NPCS in.
> From: L C <lightcastle_at_...>
> Subject: Re: An actual example - L vs V
> To: HeroQuest-rules_at_yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 10:33 PM
> Ashley makes me happy like a happy thing.
>
> Ashley Munday wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >I can't really speak for anyone else here but the
> first question to
> ask is:
>
> Of course, there really is a fair amount of variety in
> framing and such.
> I'm trying to get at how HQ2 (which, please to
> remember, I have not
> seen) handles things like this. (And, by proxy, learn a bit
> about how it
> differs from HQ1 in this regard.)
>
> >- How important is this contest?
> >
> >Pretty damn important for Luke's player, it's
> the culmination of his
> story arc in the second session
>
> Absolutely. I vacillated between this one and the
> confrontation between
> Luke, Vader, Emperor at the end of RotJ. This one has some
> specific
> tricksiness I wanted to look at, though. (The other might
> be good for
> discussing 3-way conflicts.)
>
> >so I'd make it an extended contest using the
> climactic scene outcomes
> table.
>
> And we have our first new term! "Climactic Scene
> Outcomes Table"? This
> is new, and sounds intriguing. Please to say more?
>
> >The stakes of the contest are whether Vader can
> neutralise Luke or
> turn him to the dark side.
>
> Sorry? Vader has two stakes?
> What are Luke's goals/stakes?
>
> >Luke would be using his main keyword ability
> "Jedi Apprentice"
> augmented with his "Father's Lightsabre."
>
> Seems straightforward enough. Mind you, I am a fan of
> Extended contests
> allowing for lots of different abilities coming to the for,
> so I
> wouldn't necessarily limit it to these two, but the new
> keyword options
> are also something I haven't seen yet.
>
> >If I were using the pass/fail cycle I'd say that
> from the previous two
> contests were arguing with Yoda on Dagobar (minor success)
>
> Hmm... Not sure I'd view that as a success, but
> I'll go with it.
>
> >and trying to stop Fett leaving the space station
> (marginal fail)
>
> He exchanges fire briefly with Fett, completely failing to
> do anything
> to even really slow Fett down. He also loses R2 in that
> sequence.
> Marginal fail? I'd have guessed higher.
>
> >so I'd make it moderate resistance. If I was
> thinking more about the
> drama of the scene and not using the pass/fail cycle
> I'd probably want
> Luke's player to have a nailbiting time and burn a few
> hero points
> >so I'd make it a hard resistance.
>
> *nod* Agreed. It's Darth Freakin' Vader, and Luke
> failed to finish his
> training. Hard.
>
> >From there it's pick up the dice, start rolling
> and telling each other
> what's happening.
> >First exchange Luke scores a success vs success but
> gets the lower
> roll - the narration would be along the lines of Vader
> driving Luke back
> into the Carbonite pit and Luke jumping out.
> >Luke 1, Vader 0.
>
> See, now THAT is interesting. What to do about the
> Carbonite pit has
> always been a stumbling point for me.
>
> IF you view the original goal as Vader trying to freeze
> Luke, then that
> contest ENDS there and Vader needs to switch goals. Also,
> since it is a
> one-shot deal to trap someone in Carbonite, you have that
> to contend
> with. If you make it one step in a
> "neutralize/capture" Luke scenario,
> then it is a failure that has mechanical effects, because
> Vader can't
> pull the trick again. So do steps in the chain have
> mechanical effects?
> Do you just accept one shot things as being one shot? I
> have struggled
> with this.
>
> OK, so you have that as a first pass. I still don't
> know Luke's goal.
> Did Luke start this exchange, or was this Vader's
> exchange, bidding "I
> test his defenses and resolve, then shove him in the
> carbonite and
> freeze him"? Or are you thinking more, "Luke gets
> a minor success, and
> so gets to take away one of Vader's traps?"
>
> >Second exchange Vader wins with a success vs a fail -
> they exchange a
> few more blows ending with Vader blowing Luke through a
> window and onto
> the gantry, bruised and prone on his back. Luke 1,
> >Vader 2.
>
> Straight forward enough.
>
> >Third exchange Vader wins again with a success vs
> fail. Vader does the
> whole "Luke, I am your father" bit, Luke looses
> it and flails widely,
> having his paw chopped off in the process. Luke 1, Vader 4
>
> You're misremembering, I think. Doesn't the hand
> chop happen before the
> "I am your father" bit? Regardless, Vader has, at
> this point, switched
> to "convert" directly as his goal, right? Also,
> again we have mechanical
> effect as a hand is off and a lightsaber lost. Luke can NO
> LONGER fight
> back in physical terms.
>
> >Fourth exchange Luke wins, critical success vs fail.
> The narration is
> along the lines of Luke jumping into space and ending up
> clinging onto
> the instrument under the space station while Vader sweeps
> off to >his
> star destroyer. Luke 4, Vader 4.
>
> This is the whole "rule the galaxy together as father
> and son" spiel,
> ending with "It is the only way." Luke wins big
> to resist
> conversion/despair, but his only out is to jump off the
> edge. (Which
> strikes me as one of those "at this point, you are
> losing so badly, the
> only way to win is to be messed up" things. Is it a
> "I know I can only
> ever beat him with 4 against me, so we go with this sort of
> narration"
> here?)
>
> >Final exchange, Luke wins (just) by spending a hero
> point. Narration
> is that he telepathically contacts Leia (who's been
> having her own
> climactic extended contest elsewhere to reach the Falcon)
>
> Assuming we're not too married to
> "narrativist" definitions, since Leia
> has no story question/premise, and is probably an NPC.
>
> >and the Millenium Falcon picks him up as the thing
> he's clinging to
> breaks up. Cue jump to hyperspace, getting a hand like dads
> and roll end
> credits.
>
> OK. So you have Luke winning the contest, but escaping with
> only a lost
> hand. When did Luke's contest go from "Rescue his
> friends" or even
> "Defeat Vader" to "Get off the station
> alive?" Or do we now set stakes
> from one side only? (Not necessarily the PCs.)
>
> How does winning 5-4 inform our narration?
>
> >Cheers,
>
> Thanks.
>
> LC
>
>
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