RE: Re: Misapplied Misapplied Worship Rules?

From: Nick Brooke <Nick_Brooke_at_...>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:10:18 +0100

Julian wrote:

> Nick Brooke flamed:

Not intentionally. I don't want this list to become a hostile environment. I would prefer it to remain what it was meant to be: a forum for discussing Hero Wars rules issues. I know some posters may want to widen this scope, but I am not one of them.

I feel that deliberately cross-posting to multiple lists is a bad thing to do. I feel that deliberately widening the scope of rules discussions to areas better dealt with on the Glorantha Digest is also a bad thing to do. So that's where I'm coming from. (Cf. Julian Lord's posts of June 4 ["One List too many"] and June 6 ["One True List"] for the counterarguments).

In discussing the HW rules, I find it useful to read and interpret what's in the rulebook. As Jonas and Julian have pointed out, the rulebook is in some places rather obscure. I am trying to arrive at a clear and usable interpretation, so that more people will be able to enjoy playing this game. Julian Lord is suggesting (apparently as praise) that the rules were written to be deliberately confusing, such that no two playing groups will necessarily agree on how Gloranthan magic is meant to work, or use it the same way.

I'm afraid I misunderstood this as a criticism of the rules. Thus my counterposts have been based on what's in the rules themselves -- that Secrets are *not* to be an example of different magic types obtained from the same kind of worship, that Arkati and God Learners aren't described in the rules and will hardly help us understand them, and that the "shockingly" loose wording of some examples can still be interpreted in a way that helps us to play and publish in a consistent fashion.

If theists can routinely indulge in animist worship, why would they ever perform "Misapplied Sacrifice to Spirit Entities" at double cost (repeat as desired)? Also, what would a theist/animist's penalty be for heroquesting on either the God Plane or the Spirit World? What penalties (if any) do they incur for mixing magic types? What is the Hero Point cost to develop a second magic type? Where do you fit the second magic type onto the HW character sheet? Why do none of the unusual and powerful characters in the sample Hero Bands have mixed magic types?

I can't see anything in the rules telling me that magic types can and should be mixed, other than the Spirit Cult example on p.248 (where a shaman performs a sacrifice to get an affinity from a great spirit), which I don't like much, and the Combined Worship section on p.251, which seems rather ambiguous re: how worshippers of Dormal actually work. (Note for Julian: this is *not* intended as praise).

Dormal's theistic worshippers gain his affinity and its feats through sacrifice (at normal cost), but must also learn his sorcery spell Open Seas through studying a grimoire. The cost for this is rather strange: the normal 2 hero points to learn a new spell (HW p.32), but then a doubled cost of 2 hero points to increase it by each +1 thereafter. Is this how combined worship is meant to work: you can obtain weird foreign magics if your cult tells you to, but they still cost more to increase?

Dormal's sorcerous worshippers venerate him as a saint. Since they're venerating a hero, they should get a single spell from him for x2 hero points. The spell they want, however, is a sorcery spell from a grimoire. Still double cost? Apparently so. They also have a bigger grimoire containing spells not found in theistic areas. Double cost? Who knows??

Is Dormal's grimoire spell double cost to theists (because it's a different magic type) and double cost to sorcerers (because they're worshipping him by veneration not sacrifice)? It would be easy to be clear about this, and I think that would be a good thing.

I don't think all this confusion helps me (or anyone else) generate Dormal-worshipping characters. And I think this is a bad thing. Admittedly, we don't have a writeup for the Dormal Magic keyword (yet), and it's still possible the confusion can be cleared up before that sees print.

But saying "These rules are very confusing, and I can't pretend I understand them enough to play with them: what a good thing they are!" is rather alien to me. I want this game to succeed; I think it will be more likely to succeed if people can understand the rules; I want to iron out problems I see in the rules so I can help other people understand them better.

>> I thought you were saying the rules were broken because they explicitly
>> allowed mixing of magic systems. You then cited Secrets, Arkat and the
>> God Learners as examples of how bad the rules are.

> Well you thought wrong, then.

My apologies. I still find it hard to see how the statement that "these rules are deliberately confusing" could be intended as praise. But YMMV.

Cheers, Nick

Powered by hypermail