Forgive the cross post, but this is obviously the forum for discussing the concrete rules manifestations of heroquesting. The post below is part of a series of discussions we've been having on the Gloranthan Digest about heroquest, and our attempts to understand it better.
As I rate myself HW Mechanics 3, (though claiming 12W in Heortling Verbosity) I'd be grateful for feedback and rules suggestions for the subjects ranted about below.
INSULTING THE WRONG RACCOON Dimensions of the Heroquest
A few further stanzas adding to my post of a few days ago (GD V7, #769) where, in response to some very apposite questions from Andrew Larsen, I tried to explore some of the problems we have in understanding the heroquest. This second post is more conceptual, and also a little more ordered. :)
TYPES OF HEROQUEST
Heroquest where everything takes place in the mundane plane. Most ceremonies and rites, and not a few spells are of this type - the entire essence of the myth/quest is encapsulated in a short space of time. The Orlanthi teach that every time a myth is recited, a part of those who hear connects to the Timeless Realm.
Dry run heroquests, involving moving from place to place on the mundane plane - in essence a practice for the real thing, but capable of summoning cult enemies and representatives of other beings in encounters. Pilgrimages are a special subtype of this.
BELIEF: Everyone involved in this is completely themselves. The encounters mimic the Sacred Plane. Rewards minimal but real.
CHALLENGE: the theory says that those you encounter are involved in quests of their own, but the synchronicity involved in this is large, and points to some basic principle of Gloranthan (meta)physics as yet undiscussed - some glorious aspect of Arachne Solara's web that deserves greater attention in both source documents and rules.
These quests seems to largely ignored in the new rules - do we assume a retcon? I'd strongly argue that we *don't* - you have to be powerful to enter the Other Side, and that mythpathing is the *basic* mechanism of theistic Heortling religion.
2. Heroquests that swap between Mundane plane and other side.
I used the example of Uz questing against Fire and Light who erupt from the Other Side into the middle of your tula just when you're BBQing Daisy, your prize heifer and first love. In this example, the Uz are following a mythpath but you're not (at least consciously). Your BBQ pit isn't a holy site (places where questing Uz erupt are not generally highly sought after as locations for steads). You don't know your part in the myth - all you want is for those *&$% Uz to go away, and you'll argue the point with your skewer. You may of course have broken certain taboos which cause an effect on the Other Side - a BBQ is usually a sacrifice, death itself weakens the boundaries, and cooking meat may be a taboo itself to certain Uz.
A reversal of the Summoning of Evil ceremony, where you consciously summon the enemy to a spot of your choosing.
BELIEF: Quests exist that allow excursions back into the mundane plane at irregular locations defined only by some catalysing event or disposition, and not necessarily a holy place.
CHALLENGE: Do these quests exist? I've used them a lot over the years - supernaturally appearing and disappearing Uz raiders are an old favourite of mine. If you're an Uz enemy, the fact that your fyrd is armed and looking for the raiders is enough for the myth path to remain valid. My players gradually realised that looking for the enemy was in effect allowing the enemy quest to continue, but never really *believed* it, not did they convince the moot. Part of them knew they had (ritual) parts to play: in that sense they were enacting their part in the myth of 'Keeping Bloody Uz Off My Tula'.
3. Quests that Take you from the Mundane Plane to the Other Side without ceremonial structure or the guidance of a myth.
The example I gave was from Harmast saga - an initiation quest where Harmast walked east onto the Other Side. While Harmast was a *special person*, everyone involved in the initiation walked their own path - leading to Second Son and IFoughtWeWon. He wasn't following any mythpath that he knew - though the elders leading the boys had made considerable ceremony and preparation.
BELIEF: Life events follow mythic patterns: a heroquest can be enacted without conscious knowledge on the part of a quester if suitable conditions have been fulfilled. Those living in harmony with the Eternal Patterns (devote worshippers) may be able to slip between the realms more easily than others. The boundaries between the realms are more conceptual than real, for we are always living eternally in the Godtime even as we plough the mud of Rotroot Flats.(Think about that one and role for illumination).
Following sacred rivers / dropping down holes to hell also seems a time honoured way of going *Places* with little or no mythic framework, other than the 'I Went To Hell And Got Into Big Trouble' matrix.
CHALLENGE: Alternative explanations may sometimes work here. We need to tease out mechanisms.
4. Other Side Quests
This, as the 'Oils are singing in the background right now, is the Real Thing. Two main types.
Following the path of the myths, after much preparation. Knowing the responses, and at least partially embodying the power and insight of your god, as do those who oppose you. Trying hard not to insult the wrong raccoon.
A very rare and extremely dangerous form of quest that will happen to be obligatory for just about every hero band on the lozenge once the Hero Wars erupt. Insulting the wrong raccoon on purpose, just to see where it takes you if you think you know the story from the raccoon's side as well as from your own.
BELIEF: Other questers take the roles of the gods and beings you encounter. Sometimes the Gods Themselves. Its difficult to tell the difference.
CHALLENGE: Other questors opposing you (or even taking neutral roles) may be from anytime or anyplace, thereby lessening the need for the Major Goddess Synchronicity. (The chance of meeting a humatki from a rival bloodline who happens to hate and despise you is virtually zilch.) Other problems arise: language is one. Does everything speak Primal on the Other Side? Does telepathy rule? And surely there is the occasional chance to talk about ancient/future history - 'What there's no red moon any more?' 'A dragon burped the Full Moon Temple?' 'The third Argrath was exposed as a cross-dressing Elmali after she married the Feathered Horse Queen? I never did trust that White Bull guy you know...'
Another challenge: since your crew are their idiosyncratic selves, chatting and arguing and blustering and farting as only a Tovtaros clansman can, surely those you meet will be equally idiosyncratic, and you can tell the difference between the real Eurmal and some crazy Lismelder in a doghair dress and a bad haircut. Can't you? (OK Eurmal probably isn't the best example here - but you know what I mean). How much do questers, both players and NPCs, embody the roles and features of their deities? Does free will and piety come into it here? When do the deities themselves get involved? What's the difference? How can you tell?
And another: Going back to Andrew's original question; you know the myth, and when you give the raccoon the bright shiny Bauble of Handwashing, she will tell you to go downstream to the Otterbank and ask for Mr Garibaldi. If a cultic rival did, for inscrutable personal reasons, give the wrong response - "go north to the snowbound heights of the Castle of Lead, and offer to sell Cragspider a chaotic firelighter" - surely you'd know, and follow your original instructions anyway. You might need to exercise restraint and not kill the raccoon outright for being a liar, but otherwise you can just follow the original path, yes?
In fact, how easy is it for you to lie/deceive others on the Other Side by stepping outside your cultic role? Okay, it's taboo and vaguely Impious, but hey, we're dealing with player characters here, and is sauce for the duck also sauce for the (NPC) drakes? What are the effects? I'm not talking something as drastic as sending say, an Eurmali on a Humakti heroquest like you can in KODP (Brrrr...that really SCARES me :)), but players will try the unexpected on the Other Side. How much free will do they have, and what will be the effects of minor transgressions?
(Flash to Starbrow's Minor Lightbringer's Quest, where she is distracted
from her quest for the Staff of Justice by a hung over Tresdarnii godi
taking
the role of Issaries, who directs her on a quest to the Eternal Geo's in the
hope that she will return with Beor Overflowing.)
4. Special Cases
The boundaries of the realms are diffuse, and mundane ceremonies have profound effects. The eternal battle is refought, the Sun is strengthened to his bright wandering self from the Darkness flicker over Kero Finn, the land is blessed etc.
BELIEF: Initiates see the wonders of the Eternal Plane, children see flashes of wonder, outsiders see people in masks with wooden swords.
CHALLENGE: What are the links and mechanisms between Sacred Time and the Other Side? What happens when Sacred Time ceremonies are sabotaged or go seriously wrong- other than the obvious failed crops, bad storms, broo everywhere? Can they be sabotaged in ways apart from enemies taking the roles of enemy gods? What if the godar are rounded up a few days before? Is there a Lunar Department of Sacred Time Stuff Ups? There should be...
A special type of heroquest where ceremony brings the enemy (for the Orlanthi, the Predark), to you. A structural inversion of the quests described under #2 above.
I don't want to think about it now. Read the 'City of Wonders' in Gloranthan Visions and attempt to derive systematic observations from it. 'Just be twue to yourself and let major gods do all the work', perhaps? A topic for some other time...
Heroforming and the confusion between deities and questers representing them suggests, (as I discussed in my first post) that more experienced questers embody/incarnate their deities to a greater or lesser degree. The old debating post of Free Will once more raises its head. Questers are different from their deities precisely because they possess free will, and so can turn left instead in right, not be seduced by the seven naked elf women, tell Humakt where to stick his sword (as Cradledaughter did once in a particularly disasterous ceremony) etc. We still don't seem to have a clear idea of the balance, nor of the elasticity of the God Plane in tolerating deviations.
And it seems on some level that the structures of the myth paths themselves are more fundamental than the deities, that they - the possible paths of action and response, the Eternal Stories - are in fact the building blocks of Glorantha. What different Glorantha cultures think of this is a question I'd also like to explore.
I'm deliberately staying away from HW rules issues here and focussing on what we know of Gloranthan reality. Of course, they will have to be addressed, by minds better equipped than mine.
Cheers
John
His eyes like furnace doors ajar.
When he had got its weight
and let his industry console his grief a bit,
'I'll fight'
he said. Simple as that. 'I'll fight.'
And so Troy fell.
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