Re: Tradition Knowledge vs. Bargaining

From: David Cake <dave_at_...>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 13:04:38 +0800


David wrote
>Andy wrote
>
>>I'm in favor of "expanding" Tradition Knowledge to include the various
>>forms of dealing with spirits. (The quotes around "expanding" are there to
>>indicate that I think that Tradition Knowledge is already the logical
>>source of a shaman's ability to deal with spirits.)
>
>One aspect of my hesitancy is that it would give shamans a master
>ability -- one ability they could pump all their hero points into and
>get every possible thing a shaman could ever want.

        The Narrator should be able to adjudicate which spirits are accessible using just 'Tradition Knowledge' and which ones need Spirit Combat or some other ability. Also, just because Tradition Knowledge tells you how to get what you want from a spirit, doesn't mean its straight forward - Tradition Knowledge might tell you that you need to give it an expensive substantial sacrifice.

        But in any case, I see it as largely a non-problem - compared to sorcerers and priests, shamans already suffer from a fair bit of skill dilution. A priest can get most of what they need with just a few affinities - shamans need Spirit Combat, Spirit Travel, Tradition Knowledge, before they even get abilities that they can use directly against most opponents.

> >If the shaman does have Bargain, Flatter, or Grovel, does this mean that
>>shamans are good bargainers, flatterers, or grovelers in other aspects of
>>life? I don't think so. (This leads to weird results like the high strength
>>mages in GURPS that exist because strength is directly related to "magic
>>points".)
>
>But shamans *are* master bargainers, at least in Robin Laws's view
>(expressed in many different encounters in King of Dragon Pass).

        Some of them are, some of them aren't. 'Shamans' covers a wide variety of religious roles in a wide variety of cultures - some of them are canny bargainers with an eye to self-interest, some are crazed mystics with sticks in their beard.

        I think (contrary to Andrew) that no one stereotype of shamans can possibly be correct, and for some shamans (like the equivalent of a voudoun bokor) Bargain is very appropriate, and it is appropriate that it be used both with spirits and humans.

        Its also not appropriate that every shaman have Bargain.

> >Ability inflation: I also don't see the need to add "With Spirits" to
>>each of those skills so that shamans need yet another set of basic skills
>>to perform the basic parts of their form of worship.
>
>I agree -- if a shaman has Bargaining, it should just be Bargaining.

	I agree.
	Cheers
		David

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