> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:21:09 -0000
> From: reinierd_at_...
>Subject: Shields, spears, weapons (longish, crosspost)
>
>
>Mike Dawson:
>[snip] Skirmishing, open-line spear & shield will get picked
apart by
>long-weapon users, or charged by sword and shield wielders. The
spear
>is used purely for stabbing. Used 1H, there's no way you can get
the
>leverage and power to parry with it. (Well unless you're
Heroically
>strong and skillful, but I assume you wanted to know the >
norm, not
>the exceptions).
A parry doesn't have to be strength based. In most martial
arts, a parry is a re-direction of the force of the attack. Doesn't
take much stength, just a fair amount of skill and damn well trained
reflexes, and application of a principle called unbendable arm. A
block, however, is direct opposition and not something I'd want to be
doing with the typical medieval type sword - too easy to break or bend -
you'd be surprised how fragile those swords really were...
>[major snip] One thing we don't do in the SCA is hit each
other's
>bodies with our shields. Why not? Because it is really easy to
really
>hurt someone! I wouldn't be surprised to find lots of damage
being
>done by an orlanthi's shield boss or rim.
>[end]
Well, one thing that the SCA doesn't really teach is how to thow
your entire body into a weapon strike (and for damn good reason, there
would be a lot more serious damage if those 250 lb fighters knew how to
put the momentum of that 250 lbs into a sword stroke). A typical
shield bash is normally going to involve more of the body, more momentum,
and therefore more impact damage. Ganted all of the damage is
(relatively) minor and generalized. But having the bruise of
someone's shield boss might demoralizing for an extended period of
time ;)
>EG, it seems to me the shield is under-rated in HW. I have no
SCA
>experience but do have a dan in kendo and personally I would
consider
>facing someone with a decent-sized shield a major pain in, uh,
not
>sure what hit location yet, but point sure to be driven home
>painfully. Not sure why, but shields don't appear to have been
used
>in Japan. Maybe they were considered cowardly.
A few reasons:
1) most weapon forms are either two handed, or 2 weapon. Most
peasants who had any training would typically get trained in the spear or
staff. Most samurai were trained in the traditions that empasized
two handed katana strikes, until Miamoto Mushashi (sp?) started to
popularize the two weapon techinique by NEVER losing a duel over the
course of something like 50 years (however, it is rumored that he
ended a combat with the man who developed the Jo and jo combat techniques
before he got beaten...)
2) Most japanese sword techniques focus on speed, agility, and
movement. A shield is a weight dragging you down, obstructing your
vision, and generally getting in your way. Great for passive
defense, which is something that is not really part of the japanese mind
set.
3) Yes, I think in some ways it was considered cowardly (or
perhaps not manly...). The only images that come to mind of someone
using a shield are women (and Ninjas), and I've studied Japanese weapons
from a variety of directions for a while... If I remember corectly,
the Chinese and Koreans were more openminded about shields, but they also
used more peasant levies...
Personally, from my training once upon a time in the SCA, I'd much
rather just rely on my Aikido training to not be in the way of the attack
and strike when he was overextended... Granted I'm biased, since in
a fight with weapons, I'd more likely drop any of my weapons, disarm him
and watch him cry like a baby as I pin him to the ground...
> From: "Wulf Corbett"
>Subject: Re: Shields, spears, weapons (longish,
crosspost)
>
>Well, in the Norse Film & Pageant Society (Viking
re-enactment group
>- metal weapons & armour, 10th century accurate styles), we
DO use
>shield charges. Full-weight, often leaping the last 3 feet or so
for
>added impact. And yes, it hurts, lots of bruises, but nothing
worse
>I've seen. Bashing with the boss to distract & blind is also
popular.
>We're not ALLOWED to smash the bottom edge down onto our
opponent's
>knee... but when using a kite or Legionary shield, kicking the
bottom
>of your own shield into your opponent's shin is fun :)
>
>One major tactic of the NFPS is the Boar's Snout. Against an
>overlapped shield wall, the attackers choose a point man (often
me,
>as I'm among the heaviest...), with shield forward. Two others
'lean'
>on his shoulders from behind with their shoulders, overlapping
their
>shields as an outside 'wall', one each leans on theirs, and so
on in
>a large 'V' formation. At full charge, the point man is almost
>guaranteed to break the shield wall. He's also unlikely to feel
too
>well afterwards (I should know). How's that for
Augmentation?
>
>Wulf
Damn you guys play rough! Which brings up the last point about
shields - to get the most use out of them, you have to form a sheild wall
and become sitting ducks for the Viking berserkers. Passive defense
just never was a big idea for the Japanese... Even their armor is
designed for the greatest mobility possible - they never used anything
equivalent to European field plate armor because it would simply have
been to great a liability...
____________________________________________________________________________
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- Teach the young
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- Hunt when you must
- Rest in between
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- -- Wolf Credo, Del Goetz