Michael Schwartz wrote:
> You missed *my* point, clearly, which was that the heroes cannot
> expect any level of support without the prerequisite Relationship
> scores to merit them.
Granted, 100%. Since all heroes begin with "default" relationship scores to their communities, I probably buried this factor under the mat. It should be explicit, I agree.
> I understand, but you don't give an example of the bonus received,
> only the total number of supporters.
Yep: the number of supporters converts into a bonus on a single (logarithmic) table, much like a single column of the existing (and IMO overly complex) table. The *value* of a supporter depends on both your degree of success *and* on their depth of religious involvement and participation. Enthusiastic communal-worshipers' support is worth less IMO than enthusiastic initiates' support.
> Foolish of you to do all the thought-work *period* when the alleged
> flaw about which you are complaining is not within the existing
> rules.
The flaw is that the complexity of the published table (in which you cannot add together the effects of 10 extraordinary supporters + 250 humdrum supporters - 5 fanatical opponents to arrive at a single bonus) requires the workarounds.
>> You've never had to throw your best friends down a well, then.
> Meaning what... RUNEQUEST?
Nope: meaning that if you get a *lower* bonus from your 10 fanatical friends & family than you would from your 1000 community supporters, you're actually better off (under "Hero Wars as she is spoke") if you send the fanatics off somewhere and get by with the higher bonus from the less enthusiastic supporters.
For a presentation of this argument, see frex: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hw-rules/message/2556
Under my approach, you'd add the fanatics (worth say four or six ordinary supporters each) to the base community, and look up the single resulting figure on the table. No separate columns for different levels of support or opposition -- that's just + or - to the single resulting bonus.
> Perhaps not accompanied, but certainly given Extraordinary Support.
> Jar-Eel also probably has Disciple (Red Goddess) 10W4 or so with
> which to gain their support, however.
Quite agree. This is what I'm trying to achieve.
>> Good point on logarithms... you'd convert them into a >> bonus on an exponential/logarithmic (powers-of-two?) >> scale.
> Which is what the Extraordinary Support column of the Community
> Support Table already does as I mentioned earlier.
But it's not what the example posited would do (with a flat bonus for each quantum of supporters (+1 for 50 lay members, 20 initiates, or 1 disciple...).
> You completely missed my point here. The level of support is
> directly related to the level of success which a hero achieves...
Quite. The level of success is important (and is a core Hero Wars rules mechanic); the derived "level of community support" should have no independent existence (and can be ditched), because it *is* the level of success.
> With that in mind, please re-examine my original post.
> You may find yourself less at odds with it.
I am not at odds with your original post: I loved it and agreed with it. I posted my suggestions to add to its moral force. I am at odds with your apparently cavalier dismissal of my suggestions.
Glad to have straightened that out.
>> The whole thing would be simpler if we could ditch the >> idea of mixed levels of support.
> Was not mixed levels of support one of the criteria you expressed
> as being necessary to any revision or expansion of the Community
> Support rules?
Exactly: sorting them out so they *work* is necessary to any said revision or expansion. Right now, they don't. (IMO).
Cheers, Nick
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