Re: Re: followers; integration

From: Julian Lord <julian.lord_at_...>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:54:04 +0200


Peter :

> > > But once you integrated them (and you can only integrate them
> > > once), they cease to have a separate existence and can't be
> > > contacted by anybody else.
>
> >Until you die.
>
> Considering that most ghosts still have magic, I doubt this.

Hm. Touch� !

I will state the first sentence of 'Integration of Spirits' HW p. 211 as a defence, though : 'Some animist traditions recognize that humans are incomplete parts of nature, and that parts of people normally exist outside of one's body'.

(emphasis on 'body')

Combining this statement and my own view with your sensible objection, I would tend to conclude that Spirits can either be Integrated into a character's Body, or into his Spirit.

> >I think that *much* depends on whether your Magical Tradition is
> >Inclusive or Exclusive.
>
> I would really need a definition of Inclusive or Exclusive traditions
> before I can comment further.

Exclusive Traditions would be those that consider the Spirit World to be an Alien World, while Inclusive ones are aware of no such boundary between themselves and their magic.

Kolatings : Exclusive Aldryami : Inclusive.

Hmmmm ... should we move this to the GD ? The discussion might be getting a little bit too esoteric for this list ...

> >Baboon shamans consider their Ancestors to be part of the Tribe ;
> >and while they don't Integrate them, they don't consider them to
> >have so much separate existence (They Are Us : We Are They) as a
> >Kolating would consider the Storm Spirits to enjoy.
>
> But if They Are Us, then they would view the integration of
> an ancestor to be the moral equivalent of taking another
> baboon's life. Which leaves us where we started.

No it doesn't. Baboons are likely to consider themselves as reincarnations of their Ancestors in the first place, and Manifesting (no I-word : bad!) their Ancestors within themselves would be more akin to awakening an old memory than destroying it.

Which is in fact why I agreed that your ancestor channeling suggestion was a good solution. Unqualified.

But I don't think that it's the *only* solution.

> >I think that it would be a bad idea to encourage a One True Shamanism
> >approach, beyond any necessary cohesion of HW rules issues.
>
> I simply pointed out that whomever integrated their ancestors
> would have to deal with the issue of the extinction of their
> ancestor's individuality (and also the consequent wastage of
> talents). This isn't a blanket "Nobody shall integrate
> ancestors", but rather "I would like to see a plausible reason
> for a culture to integrate ancestors".

Well, fair enough. But I personally don't believe that Integrating a Spirit systematically destroys its individuality. YGMV.

> >Another solution : perhaps "Drosox' bravery" is one of Drosox'
> >Integrated Spirits, that his descendant can magically
> >inherit/wrest/Integrate from his Ancestor ?
>
> Ripping integrated spirits from people has been stated as
> something that only great spirits could do. I don't think
> it's a common animist technique.

I'm not sure that this is relevant to Ancestor Worship. You could certainly go on an Animist HQ to meet your Ancestor, Drosox : and perhaps wager something of yours against his bravery. Many different forms of such a Contest can be envisaged ; some hostile, some neutral, and some friendly ; depending, I suppose, on whose skeleton, exactly, has been hidden in the family closet ...

Also, I'm not really sure that dead people have so much person-ness as living ones.

And, isn't that more of a HW rule than a description of Gloranthan reality ??

cheers,

Julian Lord

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