Re: Cults of Carmania

From: Martin Laurie <Svechin_at_...>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 20:59:37 -0000

> > These are Dara Happan Gods and would not be worshipped by the
Carmanians as their
> > gods are Pelandan
> > (the type that appear in the Entekosiad).

> Ah, I was thinking they might have picked them up at some point in
>their imperial past. I will admit a bias here because the Dara
>Happan deities are more likely to be published than the Pelandan
>ones. I think I might be subconsciously lazy. :)

I don't blame you, the Carmanians are a nightmare to write about. There are few Dara Happan cults in Carmanian, even at a superficial level, they are a very different culture.  

> > Argan Argar would really be Ganesatarus, the Devil. His worship
>would not be open among the Carmanians (or particularly the
>Spolites) and it is geared towards darkness rather than trade.

I don't think AA would be worshipped mostly because he would be a Spolite deity (with a different name for sure) that would be considered part of the LIE.

The Viziers are all for worshipping gods, as long as they are accepted by Idovanus, after screening by the Magi. Plainly those not accepted are wrong and therefore of the LIE.   

> Really? I was trying to strike a Light/Dark balance, but must
> till have a serious misunderstanding of Carmanian Dualism. I was
>under the impression that "Darkness" is not automatically evil.

It isn't. There is Light and Dark, but each can be Truth and Lie. It is plain that the concept of Yelm being Idovanus is part of the evil LIE of Ganesetarus. Yet he is a deity of Light. That is the clever cunning of the LIE. The Viziers are very careful to define what is true and what is not (after being told so by the Magi, of course).

>Ganesatarus is The Lie, and could come in the form of
> Light or Dark.


> This is something that I have been trying to wrap my mind around
>for some time. Carmanian "Darkness" isn't the same thing
> as "Elemental Darkness". It is more of an attitude. Carmanian
> Light says "The ends don't justify the means." while the
> Dark says "The ends *do* justify the means." Mind/Heart,
>Male/Female, ect. Or something like that. Humakt is "Light",
> while Zorak Zoran (or its Pelandan
> equivalent) is "Dark" because of their attitude (cold killer vs
>berserk frenzy)? This is something I would *really* like to grasp
>before I release players into the Western Reaches...

The Carmanian Humakt is of the Dark, but he is also of the Truth. He is the accepted Killer Knight of Carmania, though in truth he is more of a Spolite form than anything else. The Magi recognise him as the Truth, and that is fine.

I suppose the difference between the Lie and the Truth can be summed up as being the difference between what helps Carmanian society and what doesn't. That which destroys Carmania is obviously of the Lie. It may have _appeared_ to be the truth, but it plainly wasn't. That is how cunning Ganesetarus is.  

> > Why is Buserian a Modern Cult? He should be dropped anyway as a
>Dara Happanism.

> Patron of the Lunar Bureaucracy? I was reaching there, I will

He's right. Viziers are the bureacrats of Carmania, not Buseri. Being a pen pusher is a Vizier job.  

> > There would be a few priesthoods, but I think they are magical
> > sponsored by a House for power purposes (ie a Valind Priesthood
to invoke Winter
> > against one's enemies, an Atyari priesthood to steal secrets or a
> > priesthood to invoke torment) rather than being the average
vizier deities to
> > help with the knowledge.

I tend to disagree with Peter here on the scale of the role of deities. We have cults for Aronius Joranthir, Carmanos and other accepted deities like Bisos. There are others we haven't done, like Charmain, which has over 20,000 initiates or devotees. Carmania is a mixed bag.  

> Ah, that makes sense. Aren't Ikadz and Atyar listed as part of the
>Chaos Pantheon? I figured outright chaos worship would be rare,
>even in the Lunar Empire.

Mostly, there is not recognition of chaos in the Empire. The Lunar Alchemist-Sorcerers recognise what the barbarians call chaos as Entropy and its a perfectly usable source of power, like any node, only a LOT better (as you can get all sorts of weird and wonderful things from it). The DHs think of chaos as being NO EMPEROR. The squidgy stuff troubles them not at all as long as there IS AN EMPEROR. Other cultures have little concern with chaos. Any Imperial manfifestations of it are kept in secluded areas and are explained as being on the orders of the Emperor - hence Perfect, Just and Righteous.

> > Drop Urvairinus and rename Maran Gor (perhaps JagaNatha, the
>drinker of blood)

JagaNatha is the Carmanian Natha and so you can use Natha from the HW book for this accepted form of Goddess worship. She's nasty though, so you will have to create suitable feats for her. Natha will most likely be in full long form in SGU.

>and Zorak Zoran (Ratakar the murderer

Ah,Ratakar the murderer, yes, he's an interesting fellow. A good underworld (as in criminal deity) but his worshippers murder ritually, rather like the Thugee.

> > >Bisos (Carmanian version)
> > These would be Pelandan (Spolite, Worian etc) Farmers rather than

>Why the need to identify it as a Carmanian
> > version since Bisos the Freeholder is worshipped similarly in
>Free Pelanda?

> I got as much cult and descriptive info as possible from Martin
Laurie and Wesley
> Quadros' proposed Cults list from She Guards Us
> (
>They were probably using the term "Carmanian" to refer to all people
>in the Western Reaches rather than just the ruling class, hence my

We have Bisos as being an accepted God of the Carmanian church. He was defeated by Carmanos and then called back by him to help him fight his foes. He is the Bull Knight. There are several aspects of him and we are treating him as a Great God. He has Pelandan aspects, and Carmanian aspects. His accepted role as a Knight of Carmanos has allowed Pelandans to serve as Sergeants in the Carmanian army with some social rank, and thus is a superb tool to integrate the Pelandans into the Magis proscribed social order.

There are many aspect of the Bull. The Bisosae is a term used to describe the Highlanders of Worion. Its not a tribal term anymore, but clings on due to the Regiment of Bisosae recruited from the region who are feared Highlanders for the Empires army.



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