Philippe Sigaud :
> ST says that the Water Tribe sees Heler as a traitor, the apostate who
> changed side to join Orlanth. The consequence being that any Water
> Tribe member considers Helerites as enemies... Well, since it would
> be difficult for a Heler-worshipping hero to avoid bodies of water or
> to ask forgivance to any river before crossing it,
Well, see Greg's answer ; but remember, also, that rivers and other bodies of water may have quite varying origins and nature. Most rivers are mixed water as Greg says, but even the "pure" rivers aren't necessarily part of the Water Tribe as such, some of them may even be children of Heler (Azure River to start with), and others are spirit or sorcerous rivers. IMO, Helerings would have problems with only a minority of rivers, etc, and even a minority of seas etc : many Manirian and Umathelan Helerings are actually sailors, and shouldn't be _more_ affected by the Closing than others, although they'd perhaps be _differently_ affected ....
> I'm mistaken in deciding that a Rain Lord (or whatever title Heler
> devotees decide to have) is in no danger if he tries to swim or cross
> by boat a lake, stream or river in this region ?
No more than most other characters, IMO.
Unusual Water Tribe rivers, places in godtime, etc excepted ...
> I know Heler is
> mostly associated with rainwater, but I see helerites as also having a
> strong relationship with water in general. They may swim more
> regularly that 'traditional' Orlanthi, for example (for whom swift
> rivers are almost another realm).
YGMV, and I see no problem with that.
IMG, I'd say that Helerings *can* gain a strong relationship with water in general, if the player wished it, and spent HPs or succeeded at HQs or whatever.
> Another question I have is about the cycle of water in glorantha. In
> the RW, I think it's mostly : sun heats water, water evaporates,
> creates clouds, clouds migrate somewhere else, it rains and water flow
> domnhill to form rivers. What would be a Gloranthan explanation ?
I don't know about the _Gloranthan_ explanation, but your Helering players would need the Helering one IMO, not quite the same thing !
Heler was the Rising Water, or the Surge ; he was captured by the Wind, and became the clouds (well, most of 'em, anyway) ; became Ernalda's lover, and began raining on the Earth ; was slain, and dripped down into Hell ; whence Orlanth rescued him, and took him back into the Wind.
Sun ? The Sun making the Rain clouds ?
What a STRANGE idea !
(FWIW, one of the Rainbow goddesses is the love-child of Elmal and Helera, but I'm not sure she has any rain powers)
> These rivers flow downhill, feeling the call of Magasta
> across the many miles of sea. Does that mean they are already subject
> to the Great Mover ?
All of the surviving waters (bar a few exceptions) felt the call of Magasta to fill the Void in the center of the world, including the surviving rainwaters.
> Certainly, seeing Heler as a collector of slaves may be a
> good reason to hate him.
The merpeople see Heler _as_ a slave, and they despise and pity him for it.
> And finally, about the Syphon River... Where does it flow into ?
Into one of the 'inland' Chaos Voids, much like the one in Magasta's Pool : I myself don't think the Syphon is chaotic. Maybe the forthcoming Sartar Atlas will give you the detailed answer you want ?
Jeff :
> Wannabe helerites - that's hilarous, considering the implications of
> the cult (ambivalent sexuality, tranformative properties, etc)
Yeah !
> The Helerites are cut off from the flow of water of rain -> stream ->
> river -> sea -> ocean -> rain. As the Sea Tribe goes, Heler is
> horribly alone. (This is my interpretation and I could be wrong)
That's the merpeople's interpretation, and the GL one too.
But the rain also falls into the sea : perhaps Heler himself is cut off, but not all of the Helering gods and daimones ? Some rivers are his/her children, and they flow into the sea ...
My own GL-type interpretation was that Heler was trapped in Hell or by Ui, and couldn't answer Magasta's Call personally, although some of his children did. That's not an official explanation, anyways, and if you don't like it, YGMV ...
> > wondering about the presence of the Water Tribe in Dragon Pass and
> Maniria.
>
> The cult is stronger in Manirira but the Helerites were pretty much
> obliteratated by Chaos during the Darkness.
But the Heler cult doesn't belong to the Water Tribe !
The Water Tribe is present in coastal DP and Maniria, ie in the surrounding waters.
Philippe again :
> > Wannabe helerites - that's hilarous, considering the implications of
> > the cult (ambivalent sexuality, tranformative properties, etc)
>
> Well, I think the idea is more a grizzled (sp ?) old warrior,
> worshipping Helemakt (as a subcult of Heler, not Orlanth) or Uroth the
> Ram (as a godi and 'ritual earth fertilizer'). Blue-haired, hair on
> his chest, still lustful, maybe some ram odor ;) Well, now that I
> think about it, that's not incompatible with any sexuality that I know
> of :)
'lustful' : yeah, that's a good way to think about these guys !! ;-)
> Heler would be 'only' the rain used by the Earth, whereas
> 'normal' wtaer goes back to sea ?
Most rain _is_ normal water ! But :
> Hmm, then rain could also be the
> re-playing of the invasion of the Sky by the forces of the Ocean...
Certainly !
> > > I also have this scatologic Eurmali explanation about Eurmal
> > > teaching Heler how to pass water :(
Why are you so certain it wasn't the other way 'round ? :-p
> (Jeff) > Water is subject to
> > the Churner but Heler always retains his identity - that's his
> > curse.
Missed that first time round : like it !
> > I don't think he's into slavery as much.
>
> but from a saltwater entity PoV ?
They think Heler is a slave : while we're on the subject, it's possible that some of the Vadruding or ex-Vadruding Orlanthi up north still think he's a slave, and that there are some Helering slave entities known to some north Pamaltelan peoples : I don't really know, but the suggestions were discussed, inconclusively, at some point.
> > >What would be a Gloranthan explanation ?
> > >There is a friendly cloud/fog/mist goddess associated with
> > >Choralinthor Bay (I don't remember its name), who is supposed to be
> > >one of Heler's lovers.
> >
> > I don't know of this entity off hand.
Nor I, but that doesn't mean he/she doesn't exist ... :-)
> My confusion, of course.
Doesn't sound terribly confused to me ...
> This entity is Heler herself,
Oh, but the entity is _always_ Heler herself ... ;-)
> I don't expect orlanthi to heartily accept the changing
> sexual nature of Heler.
Oh, but they do !
> 'A goddess, yes yes. The Ewe. Well then that
> can't be Heler right ?'
The clue is, that when Heler changes his/her shape, he/she often changes his/her name and even identity as well !
Proteans'R'us !
Although this may not be part of the casual knowledge of most Heortlings ... or it may : YGMV
> Or maybe Syphon is needed, as even
> the Great River has its eddies and counterflows and contradictions.
Yep ! :-)
Morgan :
> > This whole "rivers flow uphill" stuff is,
> > IMO utter crap. Either there is gravity, or there isn't.
I've seen with my own eyes how water can "flow uphill", although this has more to do with the serpents in Prax and the Wastelands than the Syphon : and yeah, they really do look like li'l snakes, with their li'l headwaters winding uphill in the sand, as their waters snake downriver behind them ...
Julian Lord
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