> Agreed. This, together with some of the other things you refer to
> explain why I think that the techniques you (and Roderick) mentioned
> are necessary for characters with abilities over about 20w if GM and
> players are to keep an interest in the game, but (to my mind) fail
> altogether once you get beyond about 20w3.
Well I have three players with skills now in the w4 range and a couple of others who are close and I can tell you that it has honestly made little differene to the game so far. Sure it becomes harder for them to meet a challenge but I also find that their superiority means they take more risks too which makes it easier to combat them. So the techniques I was describing for controlling the players and providing challenges for them do not fail beyond 20w3 at all in my experience.
> > Well true but Argrath has a bodyguard with him that could take on a
> tribe.
> > What do you do then? The player may be clan champ level but what
> about their
> > following? At 10w3 I'd expect a warrior to have a significant
> following.
>
> Oh, I don't mind if the hero and his band of 12 stalwart
> double-mastery thugs can face off against the clan fyrd. I expect
> *that* sort of thing. Its being able to do so while standing on your
> own armed only with a teaspoon and a plush toy that I'm worried about :-)
Ah, then they get slaughtered by missile weapons unless they have the Arrow Cutting skill, which no Orlanthi does.
> And, again, we're at needing all manner of tricks to maintain interest
> long before you reach 20w3 - which is why I don't see this as a low
> ceiling at all!
Well true but the point is not that it is a low ceiling, because as you say, it isn't, but the issue become whether it is playable at a level higher than that. I say it certainly is, and that HW is beautifully designed to allow multiple levels of play. RQ frankly broke down at the higher numbers, HW does not.
> > Even at 15w2, I'd say a fyrd is beyond most groups to worry about.
> > Say 6 players all 15w2 in combat,
>
> Fortunately, I can't imagine any group I'd be likely to be running a
> game for who'd ever that many characters with such high combat skill.
> Unless you're counting followers, of course.
Some of my players are running around with 20 followers or more at 10w2. Some of them even have a regiment sized body that good. It is the side effect of power.
> > Once players hit this level they become beyond clan politics. It
> > would take the tribal king, all his best priests and the local hero
> > to show to give them a bad day.
>
> Yes, and you could be right that in practice I'd lose interest in a
> game before it actually got near the 20w3 limit. But, still, as an
> arbitrary line in the sand, its as good as any other :-)
Fair enough. The only problem I see is this, and it is one I've experienced as a player and a narrator, once you hit a level where you think the game is uncontrollable you want to start again. Unfortunately given the increase system we have (say 4-8 HP a session) then you are looking at hitting high masteries after around 50 sessions and once you near 100 sessions you are looking at very high skills indeed. So you are doomed to always start a new campaign at around 50 sessions or so (perhaps less if heroquesting gains them powers too) and this means that long term campaigns at a higher level are out of the question - so no Kings, High Kings etc in the party.
For me, this has always been a big negative. You start to wonder whether there is any point in starting a new character after the umpteenth time you've done it simply because the campaign collapses under it's own weight. As a result of that I planned out the Gwandor saga right from word go as being a part of the Argrathi epic and timelined it for that. I knew the players would start out as basic players and build to heroic levels, some even god like levels. How they got from A to Z would be determined by play but the goal of the players being there and instrumental in the fall of the Red Moon has always been in the timeline.
It has only been by having that long term plan that I have been able to approach the campaign with the right attitude and style, otherwise, I think it too would have collapsed under it's own weight. So I have developed techniques for dealing with god like players without turning it into a monty haul slugfest. You CAN play high levels and still be a serious roleplayer!
Martin Laurie
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