I'll have the hubris to comment on Greg's post...
>
> >>I think this is too primitive. I think the
> >Heortling way recognizes towns
> >>as a part of their normal way of life.
"normal" yes, but I'm glad you didn't say "ordinary" (and I'm sure
that wasn't an accident). I think to most heortlings towns would be
fairly extraordinary (more below)
> >
> >At some point, though, do they view that it goes
> >too far? I've always
> >thought that Heortlings would be uncomfortable with
> >Lunar or Western style
> >cities.
>
> Yes, absolutely. I agree with John Hughe's post. Basically, when it
takes them too far from their clan roots and their religious roots.
How about reading "lunar or western style cities" as "metropolises?"
Heortling cities are mostly a nexus between the surrounding
countryside and the rest of the world. As such they have some
special properties, but they essentially draw their importance from
the surrounding land, and their fortune will tend to wax and wane
with it. Cities which become important in their own right, and are
more attached to other cities than to the surrounding country, are
essentially metropolises (to use definitions a little loosely), and I
would imagine that Heortlings find these quite alien. Boldhome is
sort of a halfway case, but if you replace countryside with 'country'
in the above it still holds true. If Sartar was completely disolved
as a country, Boldhome would become a historical oddity (anyone
visited the french town of Laon, royal city of the early Frankish
kings?), however Nochet or the major Dara Happan cities remain
important in and of themselves in the absence of a supporting
political structure, and in many ways the civic concerns are very
little about the surrounding country. (Yes, I'm overstating the case
somewhat for effect, but the approximate line is when people start
identifying themselves as as citizens of the city before all else)
>
> >Also, to what extent is city organization modeled
> >upon clan organization,
> >as opposed to a different model?
>
> Mostly different, basically because a clan cannot really run or
control a city, and also because a city has too many foreigners
(including non-clan members) to operate without a different system.
> Hence the professionally-organized guilds and the city council.
This reflects why I think that to most Heortlings cities are extraordinary places. Within the clan, and to a lesser extent within the tribe, you are essentially in a benign environment. There may be competition, sometimes quite fierce, but there will be a sense of community, of `a rising tide lifts all boats,' and of `we all have a responsibility towards each other.' Further, you basically know your relationship to everyone there, and this gives you guides to your behavior towards them. This creates a real safety net.
For example, if you are a young warrior and you get drunk and you insult one of the weaponthanes, you can expect that he will be hauling you out to the practice field, and thrashing you black in blue while demonstrating why you should respect his better combat skills. But you can be sure he won't try to kill you, and even in his defeat of you, you can take pride, because your clan has such a doughty and prideful warrior.
Another example. You are part of a group that rallies to drive off a cattle raid. A couple of swords were dropped by the attackers. Who gets them? The procedure is well understood, either the war band leader or the clan chief will decide on the disposition of such booty, and will at least nominally do so in a way that is best for the clan. Maybe you think you deserve one of them, but if you don't get it you know that maybe you will be rewarded next time, and in the meantime the clan is still richer by one more sword, and that much better able to defend itself.
In a city it is all different! If you insult someone they may very well seek to kill you. If they are a foreigner they might not even agree to pay wergild to your family. If there is a dispute over property, at best you will be facing disinterested judges who may not have anything that relates to your welfare at heart at all, and if it goes against you there will be no benefit to you or yours at all. It really is all awfully unfair, which makes if fortunate that you have Harst worshippers who are comfortable enough to regularly deal with such an uncaring crowd.
Of course, most people on this list will be used to living in an
environment where most people are not looking out for your welfare,
so it is probably hard for most of us to imagine the shock. I know
it is hard for me, and I'd probably not have thought about it all if
I hadn't read accounts of Hutterites (communal religious groups in
the Canadian west) who had lost faith and moved to the city, only to
feel incredibly alienated. Even those who had been quite unhappy in
the hutterite colony sometimes returned because they couldn't deal
with the cities. Even having read those accounts I only really get
it intellectually, not emotionally. Perhaps the best modern world
example I can think of is the way that companies supposedly were a
generation or more back, where employee loyalty was expected and the
company in turn often gave lifetime employment.
>
> >I'm getting a picture of something a bit akin to
> >the distinction between
> >town and village in colonial America.
>
> There is an organic structure to these things that Mark Leymaster
has showed me many times. It holds pretty true for all socieities
everywhere, but varies with the carrying capacity of the land.
I find you can see this in Europe more clearly than in North America (although it is true here true). Towns or cities of a certain size tend to be scattered pretty evenly, geography permitting. There are levels beyond the small city, and in many cases you can see where two or three towns in an area were once equals, and all growing, until one gained an edge for some reason and grew much bigger, while often times the others then lost significance. Basically for certain needs we'll go to the biggest supplier within some distance.
You can see the same sort of pattern in the way of food stores in many north American cities these days. There is a `corner' or `convenience' store within a five minute walk of most people, where you can get milk, snacks, and other things you might want to be able to grab quickly. There will be a full service grocery store within not too much more than a five or at most ten minute drive, where you can pick up weekly groceries. Scattered around here and there are huge `club' stores, massive in size, with great deals on bulk purchases, the sort of place some people will drive half an hour or more to visit every month or so. Rarely will you find two convenience stores right next to each other. If two full service grocery stores are close by, you can be certain that there is some other reason that people are coming to that location (and then that de-facto super center won't have a similar cluster within some distance). Club stores won't be more than half an hour drive apart. When stores violate those rules, usually one of them does not thrive and eventually closes.
In short, while I agree that there is a natural progression of urban areas, for the Heortlings I think there is a big difference between the village of family, the town of tribemates, the city of strangers, and the metropolis of foreigners.
All just my opinion of course, and worth about what you paid for it.
--Bryan
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