> > There is some evidence that is somewhat ambiguous
as
> > to whether it is in-world or not.
> Tales #14 isn't written in an in-world style and
> neither is the prosopeadia.
OK. With that take, it is no evidence of what Gloranthans believe.
> > So, first off, this is the Prosopeadia, which
> > equates lots of things. I think of this as either
> > an external viewpoint or a God Learner view point.
> > I could be wrong, but I thought there were other
> > instances in which the Prosopaedia lumped together
> > things we now believe (or have been told) are
different.
> Such as?
How about Lodril and Bab-u-Ladra, just as an example? Or the sky/fire gods of the Empire and those of Teshnos? IIRC, the Prosopaedia tells us they are the same, but Gloranthans don�t know this. Hence, it is either an external viewpoint or a God Learner document.
> And if the Prosopaedia is a God Learner viewpoint,
how do
> you explain that the God Learners were active in
Prax and
> Heortland would make the silly mistake as confusing
a god
> with a spirit?
A fine point. Presumably, if they were genuinely different entities, the God Learners would have known that one was a spirit and the other a goddess. That said, when the Prosopaedia was written, the difference between divine and spirit entities were not so significant in gaming terms.
> > Assuming that they are the same, is she goddess or
spirit?
> > This says goddess.
> And it says Waha is a God and Oakfed is a God and
> all that. Likewise for me to take this argument
> seriously would require me to entertain that all the
> spirits in �Nomad Gods" are actually Gods because of
> the game title.
You are putting words in my mouth that I already disclaimed. This was not an argument that because one particular source says she is a goddess, she must be. The point was that the sources use the terms spirit and goddess interchangeably, so neither usage is meaningful.
> > My only point was that, if you have to invalidate
> > either the stories asserting that she is a goddess
> > or the stories asserting that she is a spirit,
> I'm not invalidating any stories asserting that she
> is a goddess. There is only slim textual reference
> in TR and ST which make the same category mistake
> with respect to Kolat, Malia and Velhara.
A few points here. First, I should have said �textual references� rather than stories. There are extremely few stories about Inora. Second, at least TR and ST balances the references to other spirits as �gods� by expressly stating elsewhere that they are spirits. It fails to do so for Inora. Third, there are enough other textual references to Inora as a goddess that deciding she is a spirit invalidates at least some. In this particular case, the textual reference that makes no sense if Inora is a spirit is TR 135 (very bottom of the page) that asserts that Inora�s House is in the God World. Spirits cannot live in the God World; even spirits worshipped with misapplied worship create a false home in the Spirit World (see Heroquest 110).
> > you could do so without grotesque violence to the
> > Praxian stories by adding the partially
explanatory
> > assertion that she was an outsider.
>I'm not doing violence to any Praxian Stories.
I didn�t say you were.
> Urox is worshipped in both Dragon Pass and Prax
> without anybody suggesting that he's an outsider
> yet both people acknowledge that he's the same.
> Ditto with Gagarth.
Fair points.
> > I don't think the fact that shamans can contact
her
> > proves she is a spirit. Shamans can contact
Orlanth
> > as Rain Man and Humakt as Sword Man.
> Does either god appear as a Spirit in Nomad Gods?
> No.
So, your rule is that any entity appearing in Nomad Gods is a spirit? What is your rationale for that rule?
> > The HQ rules are pretty express that shamans can
> > actually go to an otherworld (I can't recall
> > whether it is the god plane or the hero plane, but
> > logically, it must be the god plane) and have a
> > "safe zone" created by the god that they worship
> > with ecstatic rites as if it was a spirit.
> The HQ rules are not as explicit as that.
See Heroquest page 110.
> Firstly worship is conducted through worshipping
> of a divinity in the wrong way which creates a
> "false home" and a Shaman is not required.
Yes, true, but the heroes will need something like Spirit World Travel or Oper Spirit World to leave the natural world.
> The "false home" appears on the plane of the
> relevant ritual, not the original plane.
I think this is contradicted by Heroquest page 110. How do you read it differently?
Chris Lemens
(Not an ad: If you have a little extra money to donate to a good cause, check out http://www.modestneeds.org/.)
Powered by hypermail