Re: Re: Carrying subjecivity WAY too far

From: Roderick and Ellen Robertson <rjremr_at_...>
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:01:47 -0800

> > Everyone sees it as the leader sees it.
>
> OK.

I had a couple ideas in the shower this morning (stop giggling, you in the back!)

Heroquests are like Going to the Movies. You do the pre-movie ritual (buy your ticket, buy popcorn and a drink, whatever your preferred ritual is).
You and your friends watch the same piece of film. You all come out of the movie with different topics of conversation - "Wow, that fight scene was great! What a wonderful movie" "They didn't have llamas in Ancient Turkey, what a bomb" "Agamemnon dies and Paris lives? Geeze, what a load of turds!" etc.

You all "saw the same thing", but it affected you in individual ways

(Sitting at home with a DVD or Video copy of the movie would be equivalent of a practice quest, I suppose ;-).

Heroquests are like Networked computer games: It doesn't matter if you are on a Mac, or PC, or Unix box - if your machine can run the program, you can all experience the same game. (And it takes place in a world that the everyday person can't get to easily - you need special rituals and implements to breach the 10w3 "Internet barrier"...).

> > Now, some people might see more or
> > less if you are the one
> > involved in a particular station (as the active
> > participant, so when
> > "Orlanth used Humakt to slay the enemy", the guy
> > taking the part of
> > Humakt/Sword/Death will "see" the station with more
> > depth than the rest of the party, imo).
>
> You keep saying "the" guy - I thought you can have
> more than one person in a role? The crowd of faceless
> extras who're along for the learning experience?

"The guy" is just a shortcut word - it might be a guy, a gal, a guy and his followers, but eventually we need to call it something simple.

But, there is almost always a single hero taking the spotlight in any particular event - unless it's a "And Orlanth and all his followers made the Great Shout" kind of thing.

For example, in Orlanth vrs Aroka, Orlanth is the main hero. Even if I and all my heroband take part in this quest, there is ultimately one person who is going to "be Orlanth" - we're not going to share the role. What the rest of the heroband might do is take the part of the Klanth, the bag of winds, etc. Finally, supporters in a quest don't usually have anything to do except make up numbers. In a hollywood or stage metaphor:

The Hero of the myth is played by the star. he gets his name "above the credits".
The Companions are the "Supporting actors and "also starring"s. they get listed in the credits as "Joey Donuts " and "Creepy Guy" Supporters and Followers are the guys in crowd scenes who may scream a lot, but usually have no lines. They are "Soldier #3" if they are lucky, or lumped under "Stunts", or never listed at all, just given $15 and a hot lunch for a day of filming.

So the movie poster for the heroquest might read might read: "Harry the Heortling as Orlanth in Roderick's production of Orlanth and Aroka. Also starring Cally the Chalana Arroy as Healing Herbs and Sammy the Storm Bull as the Magical Klanth. With Helen Humakt, Oddi Godi and Billy Barntar.

Harry is taking the Hero role. Cally, Sammy, Helen, Oddi, and Billy are menmbers of his hero band, taking more or less important Companion parts. All their followers make up the "Supporters" and aren't listed until the end credits.

> > > > Even if you are different magical backgrounds,
> > > > you'll still see the same
> > > > thing. You may see it a little differently,
> > >
> > > It's that "little differently" that gets me
> > > interested. We've added all this complication to
> > the
> > > rules with three different magic systems, now how
> > do
> > > we milk it for effect?
> >
> > Perceptions on the Hero Plane are the same
> > (generally) as on the Mundane
> > plane, those possibly more (or less, in
> > circumstances) vivid.
>
> How boring :(

Sorry. You want mind-blowing Peter Max Yellow-Submarine psychodelics, visit the Spirit plane...

> You know at a game-design level, I'm starting to
> wonder about the point of having all this extra
> complication, when we don't seem to get many
> interesting differences out of it. We might as well
> just have everyone as a theist and keep the rules
> simple for all the difference it seems to make.

The hero plane isn't too much different than the mundane plane. The same basic rules usually apply there as they do here -gravity, breatheable air, can't swim through lava, etc. Teh difference is that the Hero Planes allow you to take part in stories or events that happened long ago.(or tpo make up your own stories). Look at the arturian "The knight wanders into the forest and [crosses a otherworld border] where he finds a feast laid and Stags and Lions sitting down to dinner" The basic "rules" stuill apply -chivalry is practiced by this court, and rudness will get you evicted, food fills you up and wine makes you drunk, you breath the air and can sit in a chair. Some bits are different (and it never semes to occurs to the knight that this is in any way wierd), but the main non-important parts remain the same.

> > > And at this point they're looking at the same
> > thing
> > > (Orlanth/Harry) and seeing something completely
> > > different.
>
> > Not really -
> > Harry...Tim sees a blast of wind with
> > icicle beard and diamond teeth.
>
> > Harry's buddies see Harry as Harry the Stormgod

> Sounds completely different to me?

It is.
Harry the Stormgod (grey eys, white beard, mighty warrior) is how Harry and his followers see Harry.
Blast of Wind (icicles, diamond teeth), is how Tim and *his* followers see Harry.

> > if
> > there are rutial roles for you in an enemy's HQ,
> > then there is a story and
> > HQ that you'll know.
>
> Sure?
>
> I'm assuming here that not all members of a culture
> know all the stories of that culture. The major ones,
> yes, but not the minor.

Ok, your "culture" (as in your cultural keyword or your magical keyword) will have a story about whatever quest you have a chance of getting sucked in to. Whether your hero knows the exact details is what the "Know Myths of [XXX]" is for. You have a chance to know them, and if you are likely to be sucked into a heroquest, you probably *do* know the appropriate myths.

> So say a Vingan is doing a "Vinga beats up a troll"
> story. She sucks in a passing troll. Yes, there is a
> "ZZ gets beaten up by Vinga" story, but there's no
> reason why this troll (not a ZZ worshipper) should
> know it. Does he "recognise" it as being part of a
> story he *does* know, and see things as fitting that?
> "Argan Argar tricks the stupid human (gender
> unspecified)", or something?

For the most part he sees a red-headed gal with a nasty spear...

Joe Average is not going to be "sucked into" most heroquests. A heroquester will attract opponents of similar power and who is probably already on a quest (p 191: "The nature of the myth is such that the world will supply appropriate foes...the foes encountered are often heroquesters as well...")

So Fred the Farmer won't be dragged into a ZZ myth about beating up Barntar, some Devotee of Barntar who is also HQing will be the one dragged in.

Of course, you *can* kidnap some poor schmuck to stand in for a fearsome opponent and hope that *he* is the one you face, (eg, Rurik and Biturian), but that's a good chance that a more fearsome version of your opponent shows up, somehow "attracted" by your quest. - you kidnap Tommy the trollkin and hope that he can stand in for Zorak Zoran, and that a *real* ZZ worshipper in his full "Hero Dark" doesn't come along.

> > In the hero Plane, you are Orlanth, or Waha, or St.
> > Gerlant. That's how you
> > appear to your followers and supporters anyway. You
> > might or might not
> > appear like that to anyone you meet - you might be
> > the Cold Wind, or the
> > Summer Zephyr, or whatever, since the perception of
> > you depends on the story
> > the viewer is following and your part in it.
>
> They can't see you as you at all? Impossible? Not just
> 10W5 resistance, but impossible?

When you enter the Hero planes on a known quest, you "put on a mask" - you become Orlanth or Waha or whoever. There is a chance that someone can "see beneath the mask", but it's a long shot - at least until you've encounteed them a few times. Even then I wouldn't give high odds.

> > > If Hugo was one of Harry's followers, then what?
> > At a
> > > tentative guess, what is seen by the party as a
> > whole
> > > is determined by the "leader", and the starting
> > > ceremonies magically bind them together in a way
> > that
> > > specifies who the leader is today?
> >
> > The leader is the guy taking the leader role in the
> > story.
>
> And changing who leads for a station? When they get to
> teh "Orlanth's healer heals the poor lion", does the
> CA rep become the leader for that station, and her
> version of the story dominate? Or not? It'll be her
> ability being tested, not his.

They are all watching the same movie. Parts of the movie are more important than others to the individual. They all have the same or similar story - when they are all together doing something, whether it's Orlanth runs up a mountain or CA heals the lion. The CA's version of the story is similar enough to the Orlanthi story that they experience pretty much the same thing. They may get different things out of it, just as a group of friends may get different things out of the same movie.

> well, yes, but that wasn't the point I was making. If
> you see the Aroka myth as about freeing an imprisoned
> friend, then Aroka may be represented by a cage. If
> you see Aroka as about stopping drought, maybe Aroka
> is a hot dry wind, or a dam. No real surprises there,
> just a change in what you see depending on how you
> approach it.

Yes.

RR
C'est par mon ordre et pour le bien de l'Etat que le porteur du pr�sent a fait ce qu'il a fait.
- Richelieu

Powered by hypermail