YGWV CJ wrote:
> However we also had one player who actively disliked HQ, and appeared
to be trying to sabotage to get back to playing RQ. He certainly was not
going to drop out of the group,
Every time I read of this kind of problem player I am struck by surprise
(I am continually naïve) and sorrow.
If you were playing soccer and one of the player was deliberately
sabotaging the game, would you ask him back? If you played Arkham
Horror, and one of the players tried to make everyone lose instead of
win, would you ask him back? Are gamers so bereft of friends that they
will not politely tell one of their group---"we're playing a game you
don't like for a while we'll let you know when we are playing something
you like.
> So what kind of scenario works well on introducing new players,
without requiring a great knowledge of glorantha, but can showcase the
system? Any thoughts on ways to introduce gamers used to other systems?
My method is to hand out a blank piece of paper with the announcement, "This is your starting character sheet." I'll explain the game system (ignoring extended resolutions), give the players a list of the starting skill levels they will be able to apply, briefly explain the setting ("This is set in an ancient urban setting, with gods kind of like those of the Romans), and start to play.
I go slow, letting people ask questions, proving bits of necessary information, and never, never, never try to explain the world, the extended cosmology or theory behind anything. The interests of the players come to the fore, I try to meet their expectations with the story at hand, and sometimes say, "There's nothing like that here," if that is appropriate.
--
Greg Stafford
President, Issaries. Inc.
Love without reserve,
Enjoy without restraint,
Live without dead time.
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1b.
Re: Introducing new players
Posted by: "Jane Williams" janewilliams20_at_... janewilliams20
Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:45 am (PST)
If at some point you do want to run HQ with this player, there are ways of making it work (or at least, keeping him happier and less disruptive for the rest of you): but that's a separate question.
> So what kind of scenario works well on introducing
> new players, without requiring a great knowledge of
> glorantha, but can showcase the system? Any thoughts
> on ways to introduce gamers used to other systems?
My immediate thought is that it's usually combat where players used to more "crunchy" systems get confused. So choose a scenario where there is no combat: or at least, none to start with. Almost any other form of conflict, yes, but not combat.
Also, if your players are used to the system being something for them to try to beat, it may be worth being explicit about the fact that in HQ, it isn't. "Losing" a conflict may well be far more fun than "winning" it, and the end result is never going to be one that stops them from going further or limits their options to the point where play is no longer enjoyable. "Oh, great, I've rolled a fumble!" is a concept that does make sense.
Yes, I know, a bit unspecific about scenarios there, but it's one of the main points of confusion and unhappiness I've seen, where the players are trying to aim at the wrong target: success rather than fun.
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1c.
Re: Introducing new players
Posted by: "David Dunham" david_at_... alakoring
Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:38 am (PST)
CJ
> player who just took every possible augment he could, spending ages
>adding them up and generally trying to break the system.
That is how HeroQuest is written, but the basic system doesn't really require it. When our group finished two long-running HQ campaigns, we did a little brainstorming on the rules, and the consensus was that limiting the number of augments (to say three) would improve the game. Chances are this won't require much of a change when using published statistics, since they always seemed underpowered (our rule of thumb for PCs was that you could always get at least a +20 augment if the contest was in your area of interest, but published sources didn't seem to have had as good character sheets to scour).
I've used a minimalist HeroQuest to run games for kids. I didn't belabor keywords, and IIRC I only allowed one augment so we didn't get bogged down in rules.
For an intro, you might want to come up with the sort of conflict that doesn't resolve well in other systems. The rules system allows you to resolve religious disputes, politics, persuasion, etc. in as much detail as other rules give combat.
Finally, Griffin Mountain is a setting that allows people to play in
Glorantha without knowing much about it. "You're all cave men with
magic."
--
David Dunham
Glorantha/HQ/RQ page: www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html
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1d.
Re: Introducing new players
Posted by: "Greg Stafford" Greg_at_... glorantha1
Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:55 am (PST)
YGWV David Dunham wrote:
> > >
That is exactly how I discovered Balazar, with one change. The people knew nothing of RPG, and so it was, "You are all like cave men." then when they met someone who would teach them some battle magic (it was RQ after all) they were all astonished.
--
Greg Stafford
President, Issaries. Inc.
Love without reserve,
Enjoy without restraint,
Live without dead time.
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1e.
Re: Introducing new players
Posted by: "Raymond Turney" raymond_turney_at_... raymond_turney
Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:25 pm (PST)
Hi,
This is actually a weakness in HQ, As best I can determine HW and HQ were designed to maximize support for role-play, at the price of ignoring complexities needed to support simulationism and power gaming.
There are two problems with this. The first is that simulationism and storytelling are actually related, by the necessity for "suspension of disbelief". If people cannot accept a game's simulation assumptions for storytelling purposes, because they do not feel real to them, the game's utility for telling stories is limited. This was actually an issue as far back as RQ I; since one of the main issues the other designers of RQ had with D&D was that D&D was such a wretched simulation of SCA combat that they had trouble suspending disbelief in D&D long enough to enjoy the game. Some of my players had this problem with Hero Wars, in that the limited assortment of skills often mean that you would be opposing a skill with something
that seemed inappropriate. The bidding system in Hero Wars was pretty much loathed and despised. The second is that many decent players actually like powergaming. If the group I'm in has someone I've knownfor ten years
So HW and HQ are good sets of rules, but they are not for everyone.
Ray,
If at some point you do want to run HQ with this player, there are ways of making it work (or at least, keeping him happier and less disruptive for the rest of you): but that's a separate question.
> So what kind of scenario works well on introducing
> new players, without requiring a great knowledge of
> glorantha, but can showcase the system? Any thoughts
> on ways to introduce gamers used to other systems?
My immediate thought is that it's usually combat where players used to more "crunchy" systems get confused. So choose a scenario where there is no combat: or at least, none to start with. Almost any other form of conflict, yes, but not combat.
Also, if your players are used to the system being something for them to try to beat, it may be worth being explicit about the fact that in HQ, it isn't. "Losing" a conflict may well be far more fun than "winning" it, and the end result is never going to be one that stops them from going further or limits their options to the point where play is no longer enjoyable. "Oh, great, I've rolled a fumble!" is a concept that does make sense.
Yes, I know, a bit unspecific about scenarios there, but it's one of the main points of confusion and unhappiness I've seen, where the players are trying to aim at the wrong target: success rather than fun.
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1f.
Re: Introducing new players
Posted by: "Lev Lafayette" lev_lafayette_at_... lev_lafayette
Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:46 pm (PST)
This is pretty much on the money. The bidding system to me seems stangely at odds with the rest of the game system, to the point that I simply don't use it at all. If anything can be justified as an extended contest I resolve it as a sequence of "narratively important" simple contests instead, with augments based on the degree of success or failure from the proceeding events.
Thus the feel of an "ebb and flow" of the conflict is kept, along with the ability to change abilities during an overall conflict and minus the "Action Points" bookkeeping.
All the best,
Lev
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> > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________
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> > > __________________________________________________________Be a better friend, newshound, and
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Messages in this topic (10)
1g.
Re: Introducing new players
Posted by: "markmohrfield" markmohrfield_at_... markmohrfield
Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:44 pm (PST)
I, on the other hand, love the bidding system. It seems to me to allow the player to have his character take complex actions without complex rules.
Mark Mohrfield
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Messages in this topic (10)
1h.
Re: The bidding System
Posted by: "Greg Stafford" Greg_at_... glorantha1
Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:55 pm (PST)
markmohrfield wrote:
>
> I, on the other hand, love the bidding system. It seems to me to
allow
> the player to have his character take complex actions without complex
> rules.
>
A key I learned, in the occasions when I used the bidding system, is for
the players to tell me what they want to do, and then I determine the
number of points. Bidding points first is just clumsy and rather
disruptive to the narrative flow.
in fact, I only occasionally use the extend system in play.
-- Greg Stafford President, Issaries. Inc. Love without reserve, Enjoy without restraint, Live without dead time. Back to topReply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (10) 1i. Re: Introducing new players donaldroddy Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:44 pm (PST) In message <004d01c8768f$a4b33cf0$ce84624d_at_Kittie> "CJ" writes: >OK, so I have an opportunity to play on a night when this chap does not >attend, and BoG is looking like an option. I'm certainly up for it. :) >However his "bad press" is such that I feel the need to "sell" the system >again, with a brief scenario. > >So what kind of scenario works well on introducing new players, without >requiring a great knowledge of glorantha, but can showcase the system? >Any thoughts on ways to introduce gamers used to other systems? I think you want to avoid anything which has a lot of background published. So I'd suggest picking a homeland out of Men of the Sea and basing a scenario around that. Then you get the players used to the idea that everyone has magic and it's the story that counts. If they've been exposed to the powergamer syndrome I'd also point out that the most powerful characters have lots of good strong relationships. Of course to get those relationships they are going to have to interact with NPCs positively or negatively which is your story. -- Donald Oddy http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/ Back to topReply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (10) 2a. Re: Anaxial's Annex Posted by: "jorganos" joe_at_... jorganos Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:29 am (PST) >
> --- In HeroQuest-RPG_at_yahoogroups.com, "Sam Elliot" <SamLElliot@>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Nice stuff, Jamie. A few comments...
>
> Thanks; I may incorporate that in later revisions!
I'd like to add a comment, too - I think you greatly understate the diving beetle larvae. I'm convinced that these beasties were the role model for the Alien beasties in the movies. Diving beetle larvae are carnivorous like the adult stage, but are likely to do a lot more damage to local biota (or individuals) because of their aggressiveness. I once had one (accidentally) in a swarm of some hundred tadpoles. I discovered it because of pieces of tadpoles floating up, and later kept it separately, feeding it with sickly tadpoles, before releasing it (after biology courses). Scaling up even only by a factor of 10 (to about 1' long critters) would make them scary, ripping pieces out of soft-skinned creatures (like trolls). Making them troll-sized gets you the Alien (underwater). Don't expect any lake sharks nearby... Back to topReply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (26) RECENT ACTIVITY 2 New Members 1 New Files Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Fashion News What's the word on fashion and style? Best of Y! Groups Check it out and nominate your group to be featured. Weight Loss Group on Yahoo! Groups Get support and make friends online. Need to Reply? Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest. Create New Topic | Visit Your Group on the Web Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Individual | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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