Re: Re: Animist

From: David Cake <dave_at_...>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 01:00:29 +0800

At 4:04 PM +0100 21/10/10, Gavain Sweetman wrote:
> >>From: David Cake <dave_at_...>
>>>
>And FWIW, anyone give me an explanation of why they get that
>stretch/-6? It does seem a bit crippling that spirit magic are always
>trying to overcome obstacles at -6 compared to equivalent
>divine/sorcery magic users. Unless they intention is that spirit
>magic users are usually using their charms in 1-use mode in any
>significant altercation (which also seems a bit harsh compared to
>other systems, but less so).
>>>
>
>I think that this is mainly to show the progression of the ananmist in his
>control of spirits. At the worshiper level the can't use the
>spirits actively,
>at the spirit society level they can use them actively but at a
>penalty, at the
>shaman level there is no penalty to spirit use. A similar progression is also
>true for releasing spirits: worshiper - not possible, society - possible, no
>penalty, shaman - possible bonus +9.

        I get that - it just seems harsh compared to the other types of magic. To compare:
at beginning level, lay members can use divine magic from their runes (broad abilities) only indirectly. Spirit worshippers can use charms from their tradition only indirectly. Sorcery users can use spells directly, but spells are both precise in ability and not part of a keyword. So all together it seems about even.

At intermediate magic user level, the level at which most PCs who want to use magic as part of their character concept will be starting: initiates can use a wide range of abilities from their rune affinities directly (though with 'broad ability' penalties in many contests). Sorcerers are generally adepts, and get to continue to use abilities directly, but now have a keyword to improve them collectively like everyone else... and spirit society members *mostly* can only use their abilities either 1-use, or as a stretch - which seems to place them at a *distinct* disadvantage to the two other forms of magic.

Yet become a professional magician at 11W, and we are back to more or less parity - shamans can use charms directly, and have a reasonable bunch of abilities under their keyword, divine devotees get the ability to dodge that potential broad ability penalty with feats - so all three are more or less at parity most of the time. Though actually, the Shaman ability to get a +9 by releasing a spirit (combined with shamans having their magic in one keyword ability, not potentially split across 2-3) makes shamans look kind of dominant at this point.

So spirit magic users seem particularly rubbish (thanks to David and Mark for pointing out that the 'stretch' penalty is a LOT worse than just a -6) compared to other traditions, but only at the intermediate level - the level most PCs will be at.

I'd add in addition, spirit magic using societies, as they are currently written, are at a bit of disadvantage as far as options for player roles. For divine magic users, devotees are specialists, yes, but can be a very wide range of character archetypes. For sorcerers, while few characters who aren't professional adepts will have a range of grimoires, any character can have a few powerful spells. But for spirit traditions, with the rules as written, only shamans, who are very much specialist magicians of a single archetype, have much magical capability.

So, I guess I have concern about the balance of spirit magic. Spirit magic users seem to be significantly underpowered compared to inititates, which is as high as most spirit magic users ever get. Spirit magic is probably a bit overpowered at the shaman level - but they don't cancel out, that just means it has two balance problems.

Cheers

David