Re: Re: Heroes and Gods

From: Greg Stafford <Greg_at_...>
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 14:39:52 -0700

I think Peter is pretty much right on here.

At 09:18 PM 4/2/2001 +1200, you wrote:
>There are angels and dead people in the Malkioni otherworld,
>it just hasn't been described like that of the Storm Realm.
Correct. It's not quite so "personalized," but it does have inhabitants. You can think of parts being different, even on the same level. Certainly no Saints inhabit the Zzaburite channels and nodes.

>For "angels", there is Yingar the Messenger who brings words
>of import from Malkion to Mankind (he is however a grandson
>of Malkion). For the dead people, well, there's Solace. There
>are also unicorns and eskavals floating around the place.
Solace is actually beyond the reach of people, but there are "lower heavens" where worshippers of various types may linger. Likewise, it's not usually a saint that is met on the saint plane, but instead a magical image or resonance of him, perhaps his teachings.

>What follows is really my speculation:

And mostly quite good. A couple dissents below.

>My conception of the spell planes is that most of the time,
>visiting them is not consciously viewed as travelling to
>the Otherworld. A Malkioni might go to church and pray for
>a while before going through the portal (atheistic Malkioni
>might have recite the spell to persuade the University
>Scouts to unlock the gate).

These can be considered to overlay the world. When a spell is cast magic occurs. The Spell world is where the magic occurs. Of course, there is also the world where the spell resides before it enters this world, and that is the actual spell Plane.

>The adept plane is pretty much like glorantha except that
>it's more magical and impressive. Unicorns frolic through
>enchanted grottos while in the white-walled cities, holy
>men recite prayers in magnificent churches while wizards
>study spells amidst sprawling tome-cluttered libraries.
>There also some elements of ordinary life on the adept
>plane: bakeries, farms, markets. etc. Mundane visitors
>to the Adept Plane normally don't bother with these as
>there's no spells to be learned by chatting to ordinary

Such a place does exist. Maybe more than one on the Adept Plane.

>If you are especially holy, learned (for sorcerers) or
>pious and obedient (for ordinary people), you might purify
>your mortal body such that you can live in the adept plane
>without harm. This is where most of the inhabitants of
>the Adept Plane come from as the original inhabitants have
>died out (inhabitants live a long time there but most of them
>aren't immortal). This explains why it's so difficult to
>find Sog City lecturers if you really need to talk to them...
I think many inhabitants of the Adept Plane are in fact those very Adepts who did teach the spells, started the schools and so on. Some of these would have the accoutrements that you describe, some not.

>The Saint's Plane is even more magical and fantastic.
>Instead of unicorns, there are monocerouses etc. It's
>also rather abstracted. Brithos probably lies wholly on
>this plane. I suppose an inhabitant of the adept plane
>could purify himself to live on the Saint Plane but it
>would be a long slow process and Saints that were mortal
>Malkioni far outnumber them.

The denizens here are more unique than the Adept Plane.

>Unlike the Gods Plane, there isn't really any element
>of time travel (unless one visits the Brithini lands).
Here's a point where I differ with Peter on this post: it IS possible to travel from the Saint's Node to various of the mythical earlier ages of Danmalastan. This is of course Heroquesting, and the earlier as of confusion and violence are the Hero Planes.

>The fashions of the mortal world will be recognizable
>in the Adept Plane, while contemporary politics and
>battle occupy the minds of many ordinary folk there.
Maybe. I'm not quite sure what you intend to say here.

>Adept planars might recognize themselves as being part
>of the local kingdom and sometimes take actions to aid
>their mortal kin (if an enemy army razes the city, they
>might house refugees there until it's safe to go
>out again). But religious identifications are more
>important (and even more so in the Saint's Plane). If
>a node happens to be shared by two or more sects (like
>Dormal being shared between the Loskalmi and the Quinpolic
>League), then the node would be quartered into rival
>factions who hold interminable religious disputations
>about the merits of each faith. Sometimes fighting might
>break out but it's recognized as a very bad thing (IMO the
>last time a war waged across the adept plane was when the
>God Learners fell...)

A war on the adept Plane would be as disastrous as you indicate.

>>This is not StThomas, this is Plato!
>Dante's "Paradiso" is similarly dry (although I did want
>an Aristolean planet-plane relationship for the Rokari).

>>The process of santification, in Malkioni, is a matter of personal
>>growth, like in Buddhism, not a matter of "vocation" or
>>of "obedience" or of "heroic adherence to the rule" or of "Extreme
>One can become a Malkioni saint through vocation (many of the
>guilds are headed by Saints) and all the other things that
>you mention IMO.

Many methods exist to become holy. Different religions offer different methods. I have prepared an article for the Myth of the Month that ought to go up soon that briefly addresses different forms of Malkioni worship.

>--Peter Metcalfe

Greg Stafford
Issaries, Inc. 900 Murmansk St., Suite 5; Oakland, CA 94607 Phone: (510) 452 1648 Fax: (510) 302 0385 Publisher of Hero Wars, Roleplaying in Glorantha See our site at: <>

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