Re: Imminence

From: simonh_at_...
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:49:00 -0000

I think this is a common missunderstanding of Arkat. He skipped between myths in mid-heroquest and explored the hero plane in a way nobody had before, but he didn't do the kind of myth trashing we're talking about here. One of Arkat's own ruiles was along the lines of 'no heroquesting without humility'. This is where the godlearners went so horribly wrong.

> .....Are there not examples of heroes who did things the
> "wrong" way and thereby benefited? Likewise, if one must always
> adhere to the old path, then there can be no new things. That may
be
> what the gods would like, but it isn't what happens.

I think there are more likely to be questers who did things the 'wrong' way and who then suffered terribly for it - along with their followers.

You have to ask yourself, if your god failed in some task, why did it happen? If the god learned something from their defeat, and you win, they you won't learn it. If the god lost due to placing a higher priority on a virtue such as trust or love, then if you sacrifice that virtue to win then you will lose it's benefits.

Trickster is often defeated because his foes use his own attributes against him - his greed, vanity or lust. If a trickster heroquester refuses to succumb to those passions, then he will also weaken his access to the powers he gains from them.

The myths teach a way of life. Imagine a Jesus at the garden of Gethsemane who kicked the roman soldier in the nuts, picked up his sword and cut down Judas where he stood. Hurrah! Christianity wins the day!

There's no such thing as a free lunch, in heroquesting more so than in mundane life.

> > Imminence , not Gods and Goddesses
> > [Polytheistic mythology is the actual subject here, but many of
these
> > characteristics are also applicable to monotheism. ]
> > Deities are imminent, which means that they are present here and
now
> in the
> > physical world. Monotheism has taught that God is "out there"
someplace.
>
> Maybe the monotheism YOU have seen teaches that, but not the
> monotheism I adhere to. The Orthodox Church's theology is strongly
> grounded in immanence. We refer to it as "panentheism"--nothing can
> exist without the direct and constant activity of God within that
> thing.

I agree there are many forms of monotheism, and western christianity is only one of them. Hinduism (mistakenly believed by many to be pantheist) is also panentheist.

> > power to be something other than what it is. Thus when Odysseus is
> inspired
> > by Athena there is not a goddess there disguised as a passing
> merchant. It
> > is the passing merchant who serves as a vehicle for Odysseus'
> inspiration.
>
> Gee, kind of like the Burning Bush or Barlaam's donkey? The
division
> is not so nearly as vast a gulf as you would like to imagine.

Greg is making a fair point. The way in which western christianity interprets these things is very different from that of the eastern church, or many other religions. However I agree with you that perhaps he's painting with to broad a brush when he's using the term monotheism.

Simon Hibbs

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