Re: [ImmoderateHeroQuest] Winter Spirits

From: Chris Lemens <chrislemens_at_Waxy12wlQzZyd7FeaH_Pte7cFogCKvFpA7saZdW8d5Ba1ZYa6UZAq0lJUgMfnEMn>
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:46:02 -0700 (PDT)


Peter and me on a different list, which Peter wisely took here for the sanity of everyone else:

> > I had been looking for in-world evidence
> > that people in Glorantha knew that Inora
> > was White Princess.
>
> What's wrong with standard textual evidence?

Because the existing textual evidence is almost entirely external. I believe that in-world evidence that they are the same is stronger given how much Glorantha has evolved over the years. I do not completely discount external evidence, but it is not as good to me as internal evidence.

Your example of how Praxians and Heortlings know that Storm Bull and Urox are two names for the same entity is a good example. I find that more powerful than a Prosopaedia entry saying that they are.

> > > Tales #14 isn't written in an in-world style and
> > > neither is the prosopeadia.
>
> >OK. With that take, it is no evidence of what
> >Gloranthans believe.
>
> So what? There are two references stating that
> Inora is the white princess which is sufficient
> for me.

And probably for me. I was hoping for someone to turn up evidence that I find stonger, though.

> > > > but I thought there were other
> > > > instances in which the Prosopaedia lumped
> together
> > > > things we now believe (or have been told) are
> > > > different.
>
> > > Such as?
>
> >How about Lodril and Bab-u-Ladra, just as an
> example?
>
> No such being as Bab-U-Ladra.

Maybe I have misremembered the name Stephen gave him in Drastic Prax. Oh, wait, I see your point. I mixed categories. Bab-U-Ladra or whatever the name was isn't in the Prosopaedia. He was a subsequent addition in Drastic Prax. I take your point, but mine was really about the canon as a whole.

> >Or the sky/fire gods of the Empire and those of
> >Teshnos?
>
> The references in the Genertela Book is still true.
> Somash is Yelm, Zitro Argon is Dayzatar and
> Solf is Lodril.

I don't dispute this.

> >IIRC, the Prosopaedia tells us they are the
> >same, but Gloranthans don't know this.
>
> Yes they do. When the God Learners came
> to Teshnos, they made the identifications. Hence
> could we cease and desist with the pointless
> hypercriticism?

Sure. When do you plan to stop? :-> Sorry -- couldn't resist.

Look, there is a point to my questions: is there in-world evidence that Gloranthans know that Inora is White Princess? If not, then the evidence is considerably weaker to me. I was not attemtping to defend a position; I was attempting to get educated.

> > A fine point. Presumably, if they were
> > genuinely different entities, the God
> > Learners would have known that one was
> > a spirit and the other a goddess. That
> > said, when the Prosopaedia was written,
> > the difference between divine and spirit
> > entities were not so significant in gaming
> > terms.
>
> Why the need to invalidate the prosopeadia then?

I am not setting out to invalidate the Prosopaedia. But it is wise to attempt to identify potential sources of a Gregging, in order to assess how strong any piece of evidence about Glorantha is.

> I haven't seen anything to necessitate Inora
> being a separate deity from the White
> Princess given that Inora's so minor she
> didn't even receive a write-up in Storm Tribe.
> She can still be worshipped by the Orlanthi if
> she was a helper practice in the Kolati tradition.

Yes, but she would not have a place on the God Plane. She would have a place on the Spirit Plane. TR describes her home as being on the God Plane. I don't really like the result, but I also don't (yet?) see a way around the conclusion that she must be a goddess.

About a different argument:
> We already know that. Why bother bringing it
> up again since I had made that very point
> near the beginning of this thread?

Because you were attacking an argument I was not making.

> > Second, at least TR and ST balances the
> > references to other spirits as "gods"
> > by expressly stating elsewhere that they
> > are spirits. It fails to do so for Inora.
>
> And fails to do so for Velhara but we know
> that she's worshipped by the Animist Grazers.

I will look that up when I get home.

> So this needless textual exposition isn't
> really doing anything useful.

Well, if you feel that way, we can certainly cut off discussion; just send the message that you are not interested in discussing it further. However, it has been useful for me. You pointed out several textual sources that are significant, by analogy if not directly.

> > Third, there are enough other textual
> > references to Inora as a goddess that
> > deciding she is a spirit invalidates
> > at least some.
>
> No, there isn't. The description of Inora or
> Pamalt as a Great Spirit in HQ terms does not
> invalidate any prior textual reference
> whatsoever because the other references were
> _not_ _using_ the HQ definitions.

Fine, I agree. So all references prior to HeroWars are irrelevant. (This was part of my point: if you are going to have to ignore one set of references or the other, and neither set is mor epowerful than the other, both sets become irrelevant.)

That means that all relevant references -- namely TR and ST -- refer to her as a goddess, not a spirit. So, now we have to question the quality of those references as evidence, just as we did previously for other references. your point about Velhara is significant here, because it potentially proves that, in a similar situation, terminology was used imprecisely. Your point below is also relevant.

> > In this particular case, the textual
> > reference that makes no sense if Inora
> > is a spirit is TR 135 (very bottom of the
> > page) that asserts that Inora's House
> > is in the God World.
>
> Is that the same page which also mentions Kolat's
> Cave of Winds?

I will check at home. The one thing that concerns me immediately is that caves and doorways are often passages to some other world.

> > > > you could do so without grotesque violence
> > > > to the Praxian stories by adding the
> > > > partially explanatory assertion that
> > > > she was an outsider.
>
> > > I'm not doing violence to any Praxian Stories.
>
> > I didn't say you were.
>
> Who was "you" meant to refer to then?

It was a hypothetical: "you could" not "you did".

> >So, your rule is that any entity appearing in Nomad
> >Gods is a spirit?
>
> Yes.
>
> >What is your rationale for that rule?
>
> Plain common sense. I've already pointed out
> the statement in Pavis and Big Rubble which
> draws a distinction between the spirits of
> prax and the rune gods.

I must have missed that reference, somehow. I will look for it when I get home.

I agree with you at the level of a generalization: there is a big difference between the rune gods and the Praxian spirits. You see the same distinction in cults of Prax. My problem is that every generalization has exceptions.

On the misapplied worship rules on Heroquest page 110, you have completely missed my point. My point is not that you have to be shaman to visit an otherworld nor that visiting the otherworld is necessary. My point is that, _if_ you visit the otherworld of an entity you worship by misapplied worship, you will find that they have a false home that is not on the spirit plane, and that this fact can become apparent to you. I would think that this would constitute in-world proof to a Glorantha that he is engaging in misapplied worship. Hence, Heortlings and Praxians _should_ know whether Inora is a goddess or a spirit. Laying aside all pre-HeroWars references, the only references we have are Heortling references to her being a goddess. (The question remains as to whether those are reliable references, and I understand your position on it to be that they are not.)

>
> --Peter Metcalfe
>
>
>
> You Are All Idiots. Signed, De Immod.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ImmoderateHeroQuest/
>
> ImmoderateHeroQuest-unsubscribe_at_yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

Chris Lemens

(Not an ad: If you have a little extra money to donate to a good cause, check out http://www.modestneeds.org/.)                 



Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com            

Powered by hypermail