>At 09:34 PM 6/25/2005 +0200, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>>>I had been looking for in-world evidence that people
>>>>in Glorantha knew that Inora was White Princess.
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>
>>>What's wrong with standard textual evidence?
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>What's wrong with it, is that it was written by God Learners...
>>
>>
>
>The Prosopaedia is not a GL document as it describes
>many deities that exist after all the God Learners were
>killed.
>
>
OK, well in that case it's a non-Gloranthan document written by Greg and
friends, many years ago, and given the number of Greggings that have
taken place since, can be held to be generally worthless as a sharp
instrument for HQ-era nitpickery purposes.
>
>
>>AFAIK the GLs identified these two separate entities with each other,
>>
>>
>
>What evidence is there that they are separate? Why must they
>be separate giving that the God Learners lived in the area? Where
>is the textual evidence for the God Learners identifying these two
>deities with each other?
>
>
The evidence, as everyone keeps pointing out to you, is that Inora is a
**goddess** whereas the White Princess is a **spirit**, ie they come
from entirely separate cosmological backgrounds, and ontologically
cannot be held to be one and the same being.
>
>
>>>>A fine point. Presumably, if they were genuinely
>>>>different entities, the God Learners would have known
>>>>that one was a spirit and the other a goddess.
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>
>>I don't know who wrote this, but remember that the GLs were
>>Wizards/Sorcerors
>>
>>
>
>The God Learners were the very people that uncovered the
>three magic world theme ("The God Learners are the ones
>who organized all Gloranthan magic into three dominant
>systems." Glorantha Book 1 p24) and so this suggestion
>that they were witless incompetents doesn't strike me as
>very satisfactory.
>
>
>
I suppose that next you'll be suggesting that the ultimate fate of the
GLs is proof of their ultimate Wisdom and Magical Skill ????
Clearly, they were witless incompetents, or they wouldn't have been wiped out from the face of the lozenge by their own mistakes.
>>... plus, it can't be ruled out that individual GLs
>>involved in this sorry affair could possibly have had no understanding
>>whatsoever of the difference(s) between goddesses, spirits, and demons
>>-- hence cosmological confusion.
>>
>>
>
>I note that the Abiding Book, which the God Learners
>caused to be written, has separate spells and blessings
>for dealing with Gods and Spirits. Given their access
>to Symbolic Sight, I find the suggestion that they couldn't
>tell the difference to be absurd.
>
>
The existence of individual spells and pieces of knowledge in any
historical volume does NOT inevitably mean that all individuals
associated with the volume in question were Grand Masters in
interpreting its contents. I won't even go into the question of whether
the Abiding Book is available in Glorantha in a handy paperback edition,
or rather if its perusal is a jealously guarded privilege ... but
clearly, given the current state of non-unified Malkionism, it is a Work
that would be the subject of multiple interpretations and
misinterpretations, suggesting that any GLs involved in writing the
thing can only have had a rather confused perception of Ultimate Truth
(tm) and (c) Metcalfe P.
>
>
>>The White Princess is an ancient Generting spirit, with a completely
>>separate mythology IMO.
>>
>>
>
>Separate mythology means nothing.
>
Nonsense.
>Storm Bull and Urox
>have separate mythologies but they are still the same
>being.
>
In fact, Uroxi and Storm Bull cultists recognize a common Enemy and a
common mythology, despite the local variants.
>Shargash and Tolat have separate mythologies but
>mean nothing.
>
>
Shargash and Tolat are not the same entity, notwithstanding their close
similarities. They may be the opposite sides of the same coin, but to
say they are exactly the same would be like suggesting that Yin = Yang.
Nope.
>
>>Velhara breaks several ordinary rules, not that I'd go so far as to
>>classify her as a Defiant entity.
>>
>>
>
>How do you know? Nothing has been written about her
>save for the mention of her in KoS and TR/ST.
>
>
Unpublished materials, and actually quite a lot has been written about
Velhara, but last I heard Greg hadn't finished thinking about this entity.
>
>
>>>The description of Inora or Pamalt
>>>as a Great Spirit in HQ terms does not invalidate
>>>any prior textual reference whatsoever because the
>>>other references were _not_ _using_ the HQ
>>>definitions.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>Maybe, but I can assure you that Inora _is_ a goddess, in HQ terms.
>>
>>
>
>On what grounds and on whose authority?
>
>
Greg, Steve. She was almost included with a teensy bit more detail in
ST, except we determined she had nothing to do with where we thought she
might belong, and her part in the work was excised.
She's just a standard minor Heortling goddess.
>
>
>>>Plain common sense.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>Nonsense.
>>
>>
>
>
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>>Pavis appears in NG, and Pavis is plainly a god, not a spirit.
>>
>>
>
>He appears as a leader, not a spirit.
>
>
He's unlikely to appear as a spirit, because he is NOT a spirit.
NG is set well after the fall of Pavis, so he's a minor _god_, not a leader, game rules for the counter notwithstanding.
>
>
>>There are other exceptions
>>
>>
>
>Such as?
>
>
The Sun Dome templars and Basmoli Berserkers are theists, as are the
unicorn Women (they worship Yelorna). There are monotheist Knights on
the Western border, Zola Fel is both a male god and a female spirit,
Lightning Boy is from the God World, the Moon is a Defiant entity, so is
Storm Bull BTW, the Hound of Corflu is some kind of monster of
indeterminate nature, various Parts of the Devil, the Avatar of Chaos,
the Sun Dragon...
Undoubtedly you'll nitpick away at that list and prove (in your own mind anyway) that you are 100% right, but clearly your contention that all "entities" in NG are spirits is a weak one.
Julian
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