Well, if they are dead they are not doing much accepting? And presumably either their families were not wild about them becoming Lunars or their whole clan Lunarised (and would be subject to any hypothetical pogrom).
> Killing Sartari refugees who are eating the only
> food in sight, Lunar-provided or otherwise, is not
> saving traditionalists. Many of these people *are*
> traditionalists, who have decided that starving to
> death as Orlanthi is not going to perpetuate the
> worship of Orlanth. Ernaldans in particular, i.e. the
> women and children, are the most likely recipients of
> Lunar handouts. Kallyr needs more than the men's
> favour to rule in Sartar. Anger the women, and she
> loses half her likely support. It's not that I don't
> see desperate and cruel things done, it's that given
> Kallyr's future, they won't be done directly by her.
Ernaldans maybe, There Is Always Another Way afterall. Orlanth-worshippers might be upset though.
> I have my doubts that Sartar's Flame would even
> light for a person who had committed such divisive
> acts. Sartar was a nationbuilder, and as a degree of
> discretion is obviously built into the Flame; i.e., it
> doesn't always light for someone, regardless of the
> blood claim that person might have, I don't think that
> Kallyr would qualify with the blood of hundreds of her
> own people on her hands. At one or two removes,
> perhaps.
Killing everyone who is different is a remarkable technique for achieving unity.
> As has been said with regard to the
> Dragonraising, there were others involved. K may have
> been the only surviving tribal leader, but that's not
> a prereq for becoming Prince. And, again, a powerful
> act, but does it qualify you to become Prince? Are
> there other qualities or acts to be taken into
> consideration? Yes.
I get the impression that the Lunars and the Orlanthi feel pretty
harshly about each other.
Obviously the Orlanthi fought people before - they warred on people
and drove them off their lands and took them. However there seems to
be at least one example of a member of the rival "tribe" becoming
acceptable to the Orlanthi. It may be my lack of expertise but I don't
know of a Lunar example of this (is one coming?).
The Lunars too, despite their Inclusive ideals, seem to want to annihilate the Orlanthi culture rather than subvert it (as in Sylila).
My point? Given the level of antipathy I think that cruel persecution of the Other would be taken to be a virtue, not a flaw, in a leader.
> Poor examples, to the best of my knowledge, and
> also ignoring the very real power of religion in
> Glorantha. I can think of heaps of people who
> committed atrocities on their own people once they had
> become leaders. Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amin, Mugabe and
> others come to mind in recent history. Various Roman
> emperors, Israelite kings and pharoahs pop into memory
> for ancient periods. Philip and Alexander, if they
> did so, did so as reigning monarchs. Yasser Arafat
> was not, and will never be, head of a peacetime state,
> as the Palestinians are still in the midst of civil
> war.
So?
> I think that the point made over on the WoG, in
> which it was posited that someone doing so would be
> akin to a monster, and might turn into one, is well
> made. Or, at the very least, might find herself an
> involuntary Gagarthi. Kallyr is rebelling in the name
> of Sartar, not Kheldon alone. As such, she must wear
> the mantle of that ambition. If she victimises the
> members of multiple tribes, it is inevitable that
> there will be attempts to anathematise her, pace the
> recent conversation on exiles and outlaws on WoG.
Wouldn't that result from doing such things to kin, or at least cultural fellows, not horrible Shepelkirt-worshipping Chaos-friends?
> You are free to disagree, and if these events are
> already written by you, I suspect that you will.
> However, as someone newly told that this is Kallyr's
> history, I wish to raise legitimate reasons why it
> might be worth reconsidering the extent of Kallyr's
> direct involvement in massacres or atrocities
> committed in the name of fighting Lunars before it
> becomes canon.
I've got not special affection for Kallyr myself (although this lack seems to be a burning offence in some parts...); but I am very curious about what people feel about this issue.
I am curious if the hatred that Storm has for Moon makes these horrible things acceptable; I have been trying to figure out this from the "other end" for a while (i.e. why the Empire is being so horrible to the Sartarites - and I am not happy with it being just because they are the big evil Roman/Soviet/Scientologist Empire in my Glornatha...)
--
John Machin
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
- Athanasius Kircher, 'The Great Art of Knowledge'.
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