From: owner-runequest-rules@ (runequest-rules-digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: runequest-rules-digest V1 #2 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk runequest-rules-digest Friday, January 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 002 RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus [RQ-RULES] - Sorcery, Psionics, and You VAST:Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus [RQ-RULES] The Rules Digest [RQ-RULES] Test? [RQ-RULES] Fwd: How Magic Works [RQ-RULES] Fwd: Sandy's Sorcery - Long /1 RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:51:28 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus Peter Maranci wrote: > Among other things, this is a test of the list. I signed > up yesterday, but have yet to receive anything. I assume that > message traffic will be low for some time, so perhaps the critical > number of messages needed to generate a Digest haven't yet been > written. I don't think they have been met, yet. I'm tempted to reset them, but would like to get at least one digest out of the gate before I start tinkering. > RQ itself seems to still have some drawing power. This > weekend I ran a RuneQuest/Glorantha scenario at Arisia, a local > genre convention (which has not been known for heavy gaming > activity). I had a strong suspicion that only one or two people > would sign up; I'd promised spots to two people beforehand. To my > surprise all seven slots on the sign-up sheet were taken within a > couple of hours, and I had to turn people away. All the players > had had some experience with RQ, but for many of them it had > been a while. I ran an event at MonCon last year (John Chamberlin's Test of the Bear scenario), and had a decent turnout. Granted, one kid (later nicknamed 'pouch boy' (long story)) whined alot that his 17 yr old barbarian hunter character "sucked" (he wanted an arch-mage ) but the table filled up rapidly and in general I think everyone had a good time. This year I'm aiming for some variant of (P Hibb's(?)) Dart War scenario, as it'll let me offer a wider range of skills to the party. > Incidentally, I used simplified RQ3 rules for the scenario > itself -- I was hoping to catch some newbies, so I eliminated hit > locations, ENC, and Fatigue. The streamlined rules worked quite > well, although they weren't put to a severe test. The scenario was > not mechanic-intensive. Only part I later regretted about TotB was the number of contested skill rolls; if I had to do it over again, I'd have played more to the politics between the clansmen. But TWUTB. > I plan to put the whole thing together as a complete > ready-to-run package and post it on my web site, but that will > probably take a couple of weeks. I'll announce when it's > available. Looking forward to it. > So, how does everyone else feel about following a dead > system? For myself, I can definitely say that it pisses me off. It's not truly dead until people stop playing it altogether. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:09:17 +0200 (EET) From: Pasanen Panu Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus > Incidentally, I used simplified RQ3 rules for the scenario itself > -- I was hoping to catch some newbies, so I eliminated hit locations, ENC, > and Fatigue. The streamlined rules worked quite well, although they Awright, who _really_ uses Fatigue and ENC? Lemme see your hands, people... Panu Pasanen. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:37:38 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus Pasanen Panu wrote: > > Awright, who _really_ uses Fatigue and ENC? > Lemme see your hands, people... Well... not as writ, anyway. I usually let armor and stuff stowed in backpacks weigh less than list (usually about half when worn) and I already posted my fatigue effects... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:02:29 -0800 From: "were.ralph" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus Peter Maranci wrote: > So, how does everyone else feel about following a dead system? > For myself, I can definitely say that it pisses me off. It seems to be a habit of mine. I'm currently planning my first RQ3 campaign, having played RQ2 until well past it's 'sell by date'. The reason I changed was because it became easier to convert my RQ2 stats, the more RQ3 stuff I bought (originally for background rather than rules). Even the odd game of D&D we still play uses 1st Ed. rules, but that is because 2nd Ed. just got ridiculous. (The term T$R springs to mind.) But fear not for my integrity, the guy who runs 'the other game' among us is being subtly persuaded to run another system. I think that with all this rules trouble Glorantha is having right now, a lot more products for it are going to be less rules-specific, certainly until a new game is released, but I for one am not short of unplayed RQ3 material. Ralph Plowman were.ralph@virgin.net *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:12:13 -0600 From: "Michael A. Pastorello" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus Well all hello there, this is my second attempt to write to the list but my first one got returned to me. Anyway, it seems that pete hit a chord with the dead system crack with everyone. The way that I look at the whole situation, the system for the most part is sound, I can extrapolate the rest and make it more my own world. I am constantly adding skills that my players want, for example acrobatics for a thief instead of having to default to a dex roll. As for encumbrance, and fatigue, well i don't use those except for one thing, thats swimming. My players have a tendency to think they can wear plate armor, carry several weapons, an adventurers pack, and whatever else they have gotten along the way and effortlessly swim across a raging river. Had to drown one of them to prove my point.Well thats it until I am sure this will be received by the list. Mike Pastorello *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:41:57 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] - Sorcery, Psionics, and You As some folks may be aware, I posted some rules for psi to the Chaosium Digest (vol15 issues 10-12)some moons back. I've changed them a bit since then, but I'm loathe to re-post them here until after the first digest gets out. In any case, I thought I'd share some of the sorcery spells I created for my group (for use with Sandy's Sorcery (tm)), three of which reflect directly back at the psi rules, and two which do not. Here they be.... RESIST [attack type] Touch Common (though some will be Rare or Exotic) The incoming attack must overcome the Resist's Intensity in order to do any damage at all. Otherwise, it is canceled. If it does overcome it however, all damage penetrates. Some of these spells come in sub-types. These sub-types have the advantage that they resist at double Intensity, but they may only resist their specific attack. Example: Resist Creeping Chills is worthless vs. Soul Waste. Psionics -- Bolsters the mind's natural defenses against psionic intrusion/attack, by increasing the passive force by +1 for each level of Psionic Resistance in place. This spell has sub-types, one for each psionic effect that allows a saving throw to resist it's effects. (i.e. Resist Telepathic Projection, Resist Neural Lash, etc.) SUPPRESS ASPECT Attack, Ranged Exotic This spell affects the target's Aspect. Two points of his Aspect are trapped and rendered incapable of supporting effects or being used to create psionic effects per Intensity. If the target's Aspect is reduced far enough, he may be forced to drop maintained effects, taking 1 round per effect to do so. SUPPRESS PSIONICS Attack, Ranged Exotic Each Intensitiy in this spell reduces the target psion's chances for success with all psionic effects by 5%. Thus, a Suppress Psionics 10 would reduce a psion's chances to create any effect by 50%. CALL [species] Ritual (Summon) Common (Some will be Rare) Like the more common Summon (Species) spell, except this version works on creatures from the Mundane Plane instead of creatures from the Spirit Plane. If the caster knows the actual name of the creature being summoned, he gets the one selected. Otherwise, he gets a random member of the targeted species. Commonly, Hold is used to keep a Dominate spell ready for the creature's arrival. Called creatures within Range proceed towards the caster at their best rate of travel, for so long as the spell is maintained. Multispell can be used to Call a number of creatures equal to the level of Multispell used, if available. CONTACT [individual] Ritual (Summon) Exotic The Contact spell is a special purpose form of the Telepathy spell, in that in addition to placing the caster and target in mind-to-mind communication, it opens a pathway for the target to come to the caster (but not vice-versa). Contact spells are target-specific; and the target of a Contact spell might very well be unhappy to get unwanted summons. Sufficient Range must be used to reach the target, wherever he might be. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 98 08:26:12 +0200 From: "Lindholm Johan" Subject: VAST:Re: [RQ-RULES] - Test Plus Panu Pasanen, a fellow Finn, said: > Awright, who _really_ uses Fatigue and ENC? > Lemme see your hands, people... Yup, in some cases. ENC e.g. in connexion with swimming and dodge (which noone in our group really uses unless he has to). We however only use the ENC for the armour and weapons - too much trouble to worry about everything. Fatigue is another issue. The rules are stupid, but we use fatigue points in one way: they limit how much armour and weapons one may carry. A weak man with ill health will thus not go around carrying plate armour. Cheers, Johan Lindholm johan.lindholm@om.vn.fi *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:48:18 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] The Rules Digest RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS _SUBJECTS_ RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. For those of you who signed up on the Rules digest format only, and haven't seen anything, despair not. The list is functioning, but a minor directory problem is keeping the digest from being created. As I haven't got the access on MPGN's server to fix it myself, it'll have to wait until tomorrow to get fixed. (And thanx, Shannon; if you hadn't told me where to look, I'd have driven myself nuts trying to figure it out. ) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:41:39 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] Test? Just a test. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:25:33 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] Fwd: How Magic Works From: "Hibbs, Philip" To: "'RQ Rules Digest'" Subject: How Magic Works Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:12:25 -0000 How Magic Works by Sandy Petersen I. How does Magic work in Glorantha? This question contains a number of false assumptions. First, everything in Glorantha is magic. Birth is magic - there are gods, spirits, nymphs, and entire cults devoted to this one act. Death is magic. The fact that you can see things far away is magic. Your heart steadfastly pumping, pounding, till you die, is magic. A sorcerer's power to drain another's soul is just another aspect of Gloranthan reality. The use of the term "Magic" in the RuneQuest game has masked the fact that much of this kind of power works perfectly well on Earth. When you don a witch's mask, the impulse to cackle is all but irresistable. Hearing a certain inane melody rouses me to tears, because I associate that song with a period in my life. An angry glare and body language can Demoralize an adversary as readily in a Dallas alleyway as in Boldhome. "Psyching" oneself up for a race demonstrably increases both speed and stamina. Much Gloranthan "magic" is no more than the recognition and utilization of these effects on a regularized basis. Obviously, there are more impressive powers available for the studious or talented. But these powers have little in common except that all are unavailable to the common ruck of humanity. The underlying principles of sorcery are quite dissimilar to the foundations of spirit or rune magic. At this time, there is no functioning equivalent to the Monomyth to explain magic relationships. Each type of magic uses its own unique approach in drawing upon its power source. In all cases, the magic-wielder must train his soul and intellect to understand and internalize the nature of his reality. This discipline, whether formal or inherent, hampers the wielder in comprehending any other power source. Hence, it is impossible for a shaman to learn the higher arts of sorcery, though he might learn a cantrip or two by rote. Similarly, no sorcerer or formal rune priest can gain a fetch. This is not to say that there is no overlap between the varieties of magic, but that the overlaps themselves are based on differing interpretations of reality. For instance, a priest might worship Orlanth with a cult structure. A shaman in the wilds of Prax might contact Orlanth and gain storm powers, but the shaman is dealing with Orlanth as simply a powerful spirit. The priest's attitude is quite different, and this is why he gains so many more aspects of power from his god, at the cost of certain freedoms. II. SHAMANISM Shamans simultaneously exist in both the mundane and spirit worlds. Actually, so does everyone else, but shamans are aware of this and can see into both worlds at once. Shamans possess spiritual organs which extend into the spirit plane, and can bring spirits "through" the life/death barrier into the mundane (and vice-versa). Spirit spells are simply ripples in the ether, formed by our own focus of will. They are created by concentration and drawing upon our spiritual and emotional strength. The ripples are unstable by nature, and once formed, dissipate at once. The lesser spirit spells are really no more than an adrenaline rush and can be seen every day on Earth. Who has not been Fanaticized by rage, had a mother's kiss Heal a minor injury, or focused one's Strength or Coordination at time of dire need? The stronger spells surpass these abilities, but in a quantitative manner only. Now, in a most tedious way, I will explain the various aspects of spirit spells and how they apply to the theory of magic. Casting time - it takes time to focus our minds, align our muscles and bones properly, and draw upon our souls' power to cast a spell. Spirits, to whom spells are far more natural, need only draw upon their power - the focussing and alignment is taken for granted. Spell Strength - more MPs in a spell create a larger ripple in the ether. If the extra MPs are just thrown into the mix, they do not make the spell itself more effective, but just add to its "bulk", so to speak. This is what boosting a spell does, to make it likelier to crash through defenses. If you understand how to formulate the spell in a more complex way, you use the extra MPs to make a more powerful spell, not just boost it. Duration -- spells have no duration. They evaporate practically at the moment of casting, and are gone. However, the effects of spells can be longer-lasting. The Fireblade spell sets up a framework in which a keen edge actually slices the ether and in reaction produces flame out of seemingly nothing. (Which is why there is no Firemace spell and, if there was, it would work on different principles.) The spell is gone, but the effect lasts for approximately five minutes. And, naturally enough, the strength of the framework set up is equal to the strength of the spell - in fact, the MPs used to support the spell's structure, ever so briefly, are incorporated into the framework itself. When the framework finally falters, the MPs vanish into the spirit world, where they are presumably recycled. Spells lacking Duration, such as Heal, do not create a framework to hold their MPs. Instead, the spell's form itself directs the MPs as raw energy to affect the target object in the desired way. Thus, the MP contained within a Disrupt spell is used up in causing damage to the target, and then fades off into the spirit plane, leaving the damage behind. An interesting variant on this process is Speedart, which is both temporal and instant. The spell sets up a framework on the arrowhead which contains the MP of the spell. When the arrow is launched, the framework "fires", in effect casting a second spell. This spell-within-a-spell takes the energy from the framework (destroying it in the process) and adds it to the missile as kinetic energy, increasing its velocity. Hence, the arrow goes faster and straighter, for a better chance to hit, and more damage upon impact. Range -- the answer to this is complicated, and I don't feel like writing it all down right now, but suffice it to say that there are different types of "ripples" and energy patterns that can be created. Two are the static and the transient types, corresponding to the touch-only and ranged spell types. Be it known that Ranged spells are not exactly 50m, but vary a bit from person to person. One man might get only 48 meters, while another got 51. Learning spells - spell spirits are, in effect, permanent ripples in the universe, capable of creating their spell whenever suitably powered by MPs. A human who defeats one of these beings through spirit combat is able to get his mind "around" the ripple, feel its impress upon his mind, and thus understand its nature. Thereafter, he can cast the spell himself, assuming he's capable of doing so. A sorcerer has far more trouble understanding a spirit spell, even if he goes through the same process as other folks, because his mind is the wrong "shape" to readily take the imprint. AM: I was hoping to find some magic theory somewhere so that rules fixes could be made easier. One of my questions was: Why is there a range component to spells? Why is it not line of sight? SP:Why not? Why should spells be exempt from the effects of distance? For instance, vision and hearing degrade steadily with range. Missiles have no effect at all beyond a certain distance. Spells are a toggle effect -- either there is enough stability for it to take effect, or else it cannot perform the job. So it seems like the spell is full force out to app. 50m, and then goes away, but in reality parts of the spell's creation may extend far more than 50m, but are no longer coherent. AM:the God Learners would have spent some time trying to figure it all out. SP:Yes. And they're all dead. Not only that, but there is evidence that the way magic worked when they were alive was not the same as it does nowadays. philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/phibbs +--------------+ | Philip Hibbs +---------------------------------------------+ | What immortal hand or eye dare frame thy perfect symmetry? | +------------------------------------------------------------+ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:48:15 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] Fwd: Sandy's Sorcery - Long /1 From: "Hibbs, Philip" To: "'RQ Rules Digest'" Subject: Sandy's Sorcery - Long (pt. 1) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:10:40 -0000 Well, as the RQ Rules Digest has been so quiet recently (I haven't received a single post yet), I thought I might as well try to get the ball rolling with my Sandy's Sorcery Discussion Page, for the benefit of those who do not have web access. This is a compilation of comments that people have sent to me, I have permission from most people to publish it on the web, but sorry to any authors who may feel infringed! Andrew Mellinger Multispell: Wow this is really powerful. Using ceremony one of our wizards can damage resist the entire group for ~8 points. With the presence he can maintain it for however long. Most times our mages usually always multispell, 'cause for one extra point they can increase their effect twofold. Does anyone else think a party of characters each with a Damage Resist 8 up is unbalancing? How does multispell really work? How can a single extra spell increase the effect so much? It isn't an area-of-effect type of skill, 'cause it doesn't follow the law of conservation of magic. Multi-spell should instead be called Multiply. Philip Hibbs I'm interested in this "law of conservation of magic", I've never heard of it. Andrew Mellinger What we will probably do in our campaign is that Multispell allows the caster to cast multiple spells with only one extra presence and SR per extra spell. In essence the caster builds the spell construct then uses it repeatedly to cast copies of the spell quickly. This means that each copy must be paid for in MP but not in time, or presence. The multispell levels will increase presence but not MP. I.E Jed casts his Palsy 4 one 3 brigands who jumped out of an alley. He pays 4MP for the base palsy 4, then uses multispell 2 to get the other two guys. So, the time to case is DEX SRM + 4 (base palsy) + 2 (multispell). Presence is 4 (base palsy) + 2 (multispell) = 6. MP is 3 4-point palsys for 12 points. Philip Hibbs Sounds fair, but one of the principles of magic in RQ3 is that 1MP = 1SR Andrew Mellinger This solution doesn't solve the problem of a whole party Damage Resisted level 8, except maybe they can't get enough MP. Philip Hibbs In fact, SP's rules are more restrictive in this respect, because in RQ3 you could do DR8 on each person individually, provided you had the MP, and it would last for a week, or more if you had a matrix. In Sandy's, this is much more restricted Andrew Mellinger As a comment on posts made long ago sandy talked about using Multispell to increase a wizards chance of Dominate. I was pretty sure that the results of Multispell couldn't be used on the same target if they were the same spell. If they can, then that is *really* unbalancing. The first thing my wizards will do is multispell 6 point lightning bolts into the same guy. Philip Hibbs I don't recall and can't find any reference to targetting multiple spells on the same person, this is a standard tactic in my experience. Sandy Petersen Spells are canceled when the target or caster moves outside their Range. Andrew Mellinger Wow that changes things! Philip Hibbs Suggestion: Active spells that go beyond the range will stop working, other spells carry on working. This will allow sorcerors to Palsy someone and run away, without them getting back up as soon as they've run 10m away, but won't allow dominating an enemy warrior, and sending them back into the castle to assassinate the king. Andrew Mellinger Presence: Wow, essentially permanent duration. While being easy to conceptualize and easy for characters to use, it strikes me leading to non-gloranthan sitations. I.e. The Ecclesiarh of Seshnela decrees that all wizards will maintain a 2 point light spell on his cathedral at all times, demonstrating his glory to Malkion. Or Guilmarn has each wizard maintaining a light spell in the capital. While these are simple examples, let your imagination roam. Maybe to solve this presence should be bound by initial casting range? That means that maintaing spells on oneself are easy, but on others are really dangerous. Philip Hibbs See my Eastern Sorceror rules and look for the "stale presence" rule Sandy Petersen What is your perceived advantage of having Presence go "stale"? Philip Hibbs That was to answer a concern of Andrew Mellinger's, he thought it was too good to let a sorceror use all of his Presence on personal protection/enhancement spells, and to just drop the less essential ones when combat starts. This rule forces the sorceror to be more careful about the spells he keeps up. Sandy Petersen It seems like an extra bookkeeping complication for not much of an advantage. I rather like the idea of sorcerers keeping certain spells up all the time. Nick Effingham Andrew mellinger mentions the UnGloranthan situation of each sorceror maintaining a Light spell on his cathedral, I find this *very* Gloranthan. The Priesthood would merely point that the very spirit of the nation can be seen in the light at the center of the city. And at night, when the sun has gone, the spirit shines on -- just like in the Darkness. Philip Hibbs It seems odd that this one spell (Pasly) should be controllable by just throwing a point of POW at the problem. You can't do this with Dirsupt, or Lightning. Sandy Petersen Hmm. This is a cogent point -- it _is_ unusual to have this spell work this way. Okay. I'll alter it so that you can spend "extra" Intensity to modify the d20 HLT die roll by 1 point per extra level. Philip Hibbs I would prefer to see Range used to modify the roll, rather than Intensity. It seems logical that you could have, say, a Palsy spell at Intensity 5, Range 5, Hold 5. You can then either loose it off at someone 320m away with a random location, or the guy sitting next to you with +/- 5 on the die roll, or 40m down the street with +/-3 on the roll. Accuracy thus decreases with distance. The distinction is less meaningful if the spell is being cast straight away, but it affects such things as St. Josselyne's (add INT to Intensity - is this still right, or has it changed again? ;-> ) Sandy Petersen I can go for having Range modify the die roll. I'll add that to the Art description. I especially like the decrease in accuracy with distance. Off hand I can't think if we have any Touch range spells that go for a random hit location. If we do, clearly you could use an "aimed blow" to target better. Philip Hibbs More generally, what do you think of the philosophical side, the Journeys etc? Sandy Petersen I don't like the Journeys as they now stand because they provide a permanent benefit for a temporary inconvenience. I am oddly attracted to them, though, and when I have more time to brood on it, I will no doubt have more intelligent remarks. Nick Effingham I like journeys, but don't think they should replace Vows. I think that Journeys should just be treated like HeroQuests. I had already decided that in the Henotheistic nation of Otkorion they possessed sorcerous HeroQuests merely to increase presence. I think a lot of sorcerous lands would have appropiate HeroQuests, and all use Journeys/Pilgrimages to increase Presence via proving their piety. I think that Atheists would use Vows as well, and using Journeys very rarely when they come in contact with a cult that allows them access to the appropiate rituals to cast the spell neccessary to start the Journey. BTW, have you noticed that as a sorceror gains power they lose free will through the aquisition of Vows???? Very Gloranthan, whereas Journeys do not offer this. Philip Hibbs Yes, I thought of this very same analogy just the day before reading your email! This is another justification for the Malkioni being the best sorcerors in the world (if you subscribe to that opinion), in that they are doing it properly by exchanging free will for otherworldly power. Philip Hibbs ... those Pagans that don't like Vows ... Sandy Petersen Huh? Every pagan religion I've ever heard of has Vows, Philip Hibbs The basic thrust of my rules is to cover a classification of people which has arisen through play - that of the atheist sorceror, worshipping no God, owing no duty to any entity, manipulating the world through applied force of will. Sandy Petersen My rules were specifically aimed at permitting atheists in play. The Vows aren't like geasa -- they're not sacrifices aimed at pleasing some big god; they are mental/spiritual disciplines adherence to which gives the practitioner more control over the otherworld. If one's own philosophy happens to be close to one of the disciplines and thus have greater meaning, you might get more power from that Vow. Example: the Rokari are big on chastity, thus the Celibacy Vow gives them more oomph than other sects. But there are plenty of atheist philosophies. Why can't an atheist adhere to a discipline in order to gain power. An atheist could certainly choose to sacrifice his own APP, POW, etc. or to keep from tainting his soul with Spirit Magic. One could create special atheist vows, such as Never Participate in Worship Ceremony, or Shun Holy Ground. Philip Hibbs These people are out there, in most peoples Gloranthas (Gloranthae?), and they cannot be converted to the Western Sorcery rules, because their whole personalities and lifestyles would have to be left behind as they take on the Vows necessary to get enough Presence to achieve what they had previously taken for granted. Sandy Petersen Why? Why do the Vows destroy their personalities & lifestyles? Sorcerers EVERYWHERE in glorantha are supposed to be eccentric, and morally peculiar, and often physically malformed. The Vows support this concept. The Vows aren't peculiarly Western. Philip Hibbs That is, unfortunately, the way that they are perceived. There could be a middle ground alternative here - the Vows listed are very 'western' or could almost be called 'christian', and this adds to their reputation for being religious in nature. If a decent set of Vows more suited to the Dragon Pass adventurer could be devised, then this problem would be alleviated. The problem with this is that you would have to keep the list on a par with the western list in terms of diffuculty, while still allowing characters to go on more-or-less as they used to. Otherwise the idea that 'the westerners have the best sorcerors' becomes difficult to explain. This criticism could be levelled at the Journey system, but Journey sorcerors get a worse deal on the High Vow / Vessel equivalent. Sandy Petersen I really am stumped by your perception of my rules. Why can't a sorcerer be self-centered, arrogant, and irrelgious under them? Philip Hibbs That's not the point, they just seem to funnel sorcerors down a particular path, giving them a list of 'things I can't do'. OK, this list is different for each sorceror, but a sorceror still becomes 'a bloke with a list of stuff he can't do'. Journeys has been praised for its tendency to make Sorcerors strange and eccentric, because they keep doing different things, like hedonism followed by chastity, calling everyone by the wrong gender titles for a bit, then later refusing to go through doors, only flying upside-down, etc. It has been suggested that season-long Journeys should be introduced, with an INTx1 roll to gain the presence, to add more variety. Philip Hibbs Andrew has raised some gameplay points, such as how do you handle a party of sorcerors all with Damage Resistance and Spell Resistance, against a similar bunch - the dice rolls get out of hand Sandy Petersen I wrote Andrew about this. Having a lot of Resist spells up does make for a lot of die-rolling. I'm not sure what the answer is yet. I have come up with a few possibilities, but I'm not ready to write them out yet. If you have suggestions, please pass them on. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of runequest-rules-digest V1 #2 *********************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Avalon Hill Games. 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