From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #69 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Thursday, April 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 069 RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS RE: [RQ-RULES] RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit RE: [RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit RE: [RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit [RQ-RULES] Re: Ghosts [RQ-RULES] Accusations? Re: [RQ-RULES] The campaigns Re: [RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit RE: [RQ-RULES] RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit [RQ-RULES] Fwd: R: RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #65 [RQ-RULES] Fwd: RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:10:43 +0100 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit >Time out here. What objections? As far as a sorcerer is concerned >a spirit is a soul that has not achieved solace and subjugating it to >the will of the just is fair game. It seems strange to me too, POW spirits and Intellect spirits seem custom-made for sorcerors to utilise. However, the accepted wisdom seems to be that they don't. I partly take this conclusion from Sandy's rules - not from what they say, but what they *don't* say. There is nothing mentioned in the rules about Summoning, other than the spell description that is lifted straight from the RQ3 rules, and if you look back at the previous version, the spell is not even described! The burning question is: Why make MP enchantments? There must be a reason why Sorcerors do this, and the only one that I can think of is that they have some kind of objection to trafficking with spirits. I was generating a Magisaur character the other day (don't ask why!), and in the description, it says that they cover their bodies with enchantments, and that they favour Spell Matrix, Magic Point Matrix, and Elemental binding enchantments. The other players said I should bind Magic spirits, or POW spirits and Intellect spirits, because it's much better. The fact remains, though, that Magisaurs *don't*. So I didn't. It's the same reason why my Orlanthi character refused to learn any spells from the Basmoli shaman. It's suspicious, foreign magics, and it wouldn't work for me because I don't accept the mythic truths that the spells are based on. philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/phibbs A single death is a tragedy a million deaths are a statistic Josef Stalin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:20:03 +0100 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit >Summon, and enchant spells do not take up int in RQ3. Eh? Yes they do, don't they say something like "1 point (memorisation only)"? philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/phibbs A single death is a tragedy a million deaths are a statistic Josef Stalin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:34:40 PDT From: "Leon Kirshtein" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit >>Summon, and enchant spells do not take up int in RQ3. > >Eh? Yes they do, don't they say something like "1 point (memorisation >only)"? No Leon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:51:44 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Ghosts Who is this anyway? Philip called me a power-gaming rules lawyer because my players made ghost binds, forced ghosts into them, and then had the audacity to use the ghosts to cast spells. You seem to say that binding your enemies is fine, but not a willing spirit. RU>> RU>game worlds where evil sorts will kill you on Tuesday, bind your ghost RU>> RU>into their rug on Wednesday, and spend all day Thursday marching back RU>> RU>and forth on that rug with hob-nail boots, because you died before they RU>> RU>were finished making you suffer. RU>What does this tactic have to do with power gaming? Why do you imagine RU>that Saxons made goblets of their enemies' heads, if not for the same RU>purpose? Likewise, voodoo priests seem to try the same thing. After all, RU>where better to find spirits than where one was just freed (from its corpse) RU>Again, how better to crush your enemies than to enslave them in the next RU>world, preventing them from going to the Happy Hunting Ground, TyKoraTek, RU>or wherever else? This is proper role playing. I consider the concept perfectly legitimate. It just needs to backfire occasionally, and you generally seem to agree with that. RU>> By extension, defacing a body after death could anger the ghost and RU>> cause it to attack, and if defeated, be bound. This is, of course, an RU>> evil act because it dishonors the dead and violates all burial rituals. RU>Proper burial rituals should prevent this, moving the spirit along to RU>Judgement faster than normal (otherwise, it might haunt the living). The intention was to get the ghost to attack so that it could be bound, not to hurry it on it's way. RU>If my descendent traps me in a binding, I won't be very friendly for very RU>long! That *is* slavery, after all, hardly filial piety. If they *Forced* you into a bind it wouldn't matter if you were friendly, neutral, or hostile, but if they summoned you and asked you if you would travel with them and help them by casting your spells and giving your advice, you might, if friendly, choose to do so, knowing you would have to enter a bind or possess some creature, otherwise you would not be able to remain. Then they filled your Int with spells and gave you magic point storage to cast them with, maybe they even gave you a gods crystal to attune, so that you would be more happy in your new life. That would not be slavery, it would be helping and aiding your descendent. I think that is also role-playing. RU>Also, since spirit combat has been described like spirits wrestling, a RU>player who did this too often could find out that some spirits can go RU>"berzerk" (RW sense), even it the living character couldn't (ie, a "hit" RU>in Spirit Combat removes 2D3 MP rather than just 1D3, or even a D3+3) RU>(result: spirit combat even with known spirits can be MUCH more dangerous RU>to the PC, at GM discretion). This is discussing how you run your game, not whether something is possible. Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:01:35 +0100 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Accusations? >Philip called me a power-gaming rules lawyer No I didn't. philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/phibbs A single death is a tragedy a million deaths are a statistic Josef Stalin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:50:48 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] The campaigns RU>In Simons defense, this was not due to his House Rules, only due to the fact RU>that he had played his game for a long time. After playing continously with RU>a character for two years I managed to figure it that if I put my all into a RU>combat situation I could get my attack upto about 600% doing a max RU>unhealable damage of about 100. RQ characters of a long lived nature, RU>especially those with access to sorcery (under any system) increase to quite RU>powerful levels. Giving away percents IS unbalancing because it bypasses the intended limiting facet of the game, that is definitely a house rule. After two years in my game the players are just making rune level. the best attack is about 170% with spells and the best damage is about 6d6. RU>Hmmm, to be honest, I've never been convinced that RuneQuest stops working RU>at high levels. I don't really see that many probelems with it. HeroQuest is RU>a different matter... Duels at rune level fall into one of two categories, attack your opponent's shield and weapon, or swing until the parry fails and you crit. RU>I hope mine isn't.. (plug plug...) I don't think I have ever seen your web page or Hero quest rules. RU>> Several have even abstracted combat or gotten rid of dice to RU>>create a much stronger story-telling atmosphere. RU>I only believe that YAHQS has. I think most other just divide all skills by RU>5 or 10. It reduces power level down to a reasonable level. YAHQS abstracted combat to an absurd level, it basically counted how many multiples of 100% you had. I have seen another system that said to improvise the results as you go, and don't bog things down with dice. RU>I did both. In Glorantha I think there are lots of powerful deadly Heroes RU>and Monsters (see Dorastor) but I think that EVERYONE uses HeroQuests. Check RU>out Simon Phipps rules, this shows how HeroQuests might be used without RU>entering the exceedingly deadly GodPlane and getting killed. Most of the creatures in Dorastor can be killed by a few Rune Lords. I am far more bothered when a character can kill the Terrors listed in Elder Secrets. They are intended to be beyond the power of any mortal. RU>I don;t think that Rune Mastery is such a big issue any more. Lotz of RU>systems ignore it. Some legends in King of Sartar demonstrate Rune Mastery, but it is extremely rare. RU>I doubt that Superhero should be applied as embodying an entire culture. RU>Harrek is more of a loner, Jar-Eel isn't, Arkat defintely wasn't and RU>Andrgoenous... well... I think that Superhero is just a Hero with the RU>Infinity Rune. You just came back to the issue of Rune Mastery. Arkat is probably a super hero and Androgyous is definitely given that label, but King of Sartar only gave him/her a couple of paragraphs and no background. Here is my roll call of known heroes from Dragon Pass and King of Sartar: The Pharoah was the hero of the Holy Country, but he was killed by Jar Eel. Harrek rules the Isle of Ygg and the Wolf Pirates. Gunda ia from one of the germanic/Orlanthi countries on the south coast of Genertela. Sir Ethilrist settled and rules the Black Horse country. The Red Emperor, as the Red Goddess's son, is the super hero of the Lunar Empire. Jar Eel could become a super hero, but she is overshadowed by her 'father', the emperor. Crag Spider could be a super hero if she could unite the trolls, she only has a cult following. The Unhuman King rules a small but powerful fading race. Ralzakark rules the broos of Dorastor, and Dorastor itself by extension. Androgyous is or becomes a super hero, but Greg never says why. Argrath starts the hero wars as hero of Sartar, but eventually unites many nations and becomes a super hero. While I am willing to let my players accompany these people, I am not willing to let them replace these people. Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:13:28 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit RU>No, it is different. A sorcerer just needs to summon and dominate, a RU>shaman needs to find and defeat in spirit combat. In all three forms of magic you acquire, defeat, and bind. Everything else is details. RU>>RU>> In some cultures, MP Matrix Enchant may be easier to find than RU>>RU>>Binding Enchant, Summon Pow Spirit and Control Pow Spirit. These RU>>RU>>people use the simple method even though it is not quite as good. RU>I am not following your logic here on the spell count. MP Matrix Enchant is a spell that has to be learned and takes up INT. Binding Enchant is a spell that has to be learned and takes up INT. Summon is a spell that has to be learned and takes up INT. Dominate is a spell that has to be learned and takes up INT. It takes one spell to get a MP Matrix, it takes three spells to get a bound Pow spirit. The Pow spirit is Usually bigger than the Matrix, but it requires more trouble. RU>Sorcerers have the same availability to their spells as shamans, in RU>terms of rarety, priests are less restrained but more limited to their RU>god's sphere. Any shaman can discorporate and eventually find the spell spirit they need without outside help. A sorcerer has to get a spell from another sorcerer by direct or indirect means, unless you allow spell creation. RU>I disagree here. It is not more difficult to learn, just takes longer to RU>get good at it. That is a significant time investment. RU>>and you tie up five Int instead of RU>>one, assuming Bind is three points for sorcerers, I don't know. RU>Summon, and enchant spells do not take up int in RQ3. Sorry, This is wrong!! RU>All sorcery spells take up one int in Sandy's rules. This would be one Int vs three Int. RU>In RQ4 sorcery does not take up int. By the copy I saw, all sorcery took one Int. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:21:28 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit RU>>Time out here. What objections? As far as a sorcerer is concerned RU>>a spirit is a soul that has not achieved solace and subjugating it to RU>>the will of the just is fair game. RU>It seems strange to me too, POW spirits and Intellect spirits seem RU>custom-made for sorcerors to utilise. However, the accepted wisdom seems to RU>be that they don't. I partly take this conclusion from Sandy's rules - not RU>from what they say, but what they *don't* say. There is nothing mentioned in RU>the rules about Summoning, other than the spell description that is lifted RU>straight from the RQ3 rules, and if you look back at the previous version, RU>the spell is not even described! The burning question is: Why make MP RU>enchantments? There must be a reason why Sorcerors do this, and the only one RU>that I can think of is that they have some kind of objection to trafficking RU>with spirits. Sandy's rules are not intended to be complete, they modify or replace standard RQ3 rules. This all comes down to allocation of free Int; do you learn Binding Enchantment and a specialized Summon <> and Dominate <> spell for every spirit you want to use? Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:46:17 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] Fwd: R: RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #65 From: trystero@mediaone.net (Douglas Bailey) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #65 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:01:13 -0400 Organization: W.A.S.T.E. Phillip Hibbs writes: >Whenever I come across abusive use of the rules, which is usually a case of >"It doesn't say I can't", I look for reasons why it either can't be done or >is horribly dangerous. Here's one: If someone's near ancestor has become a >ghost, bound, and forced to forget the cult rituals (spells), then their >initiation ceremony will fail.... Here's another: the RQ3 Creatures book tells us that a lot of ghosts are insane. What are the effects of magically commanding an insane being? Does it do what you tell it to do? Does it do random things? Does it do *anything*? Another sticky point: how does the magical compulsion in a Binding Enchantment work? Is it literalistic? If you command your bound ghost to expend 2 POW on an Armoring Enchantment for your head, can the ghost (which is sentient and probably quite bright) spend another 1 POW of its own volition and put a limiting condition on the enchantment so that it doesn't work for you? doug - --------------douglas bailey (trystero@ne.mediaone.net)-------------- don't you let my letter get you down... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:47:44 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] Fwd: From: trystero@mediaone.net (Douglas Bailey) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #68 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:39:44 -0400 Organization: W.A.S.T.E. Leon Kirshtein writes: >Bob Stancliff writes: >>Re: Bound Spirit > >>...assuming Bind is three points for sorcerers, I don't know. > >Summon and enchant spells do not take up int in RQ3. Do the rules actually say this anywhere? I've always played that spirit and sorcerous ritual spells took up INT normally: "only divine spells do not require INT to be memorized." (RQ3, softbound p.95 or Magic Book p.11) On the other hand, I can't see anything that suggests a Binding Enchantment takes up more than one point of INT, either. The sorceror may need to spend multiple points of POW to create a binding, but the spell itself takes up one point like any other sorcery spell. MHO, of course. :) doug - --------------douglas bailey (trystero@ne.mediaone.net)-------------- don't you let my letter get you down... --david bowie *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #69 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.