From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #111 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Monday, June 8 1998 Volume 01 : Number 111 RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS [RQ-RULES] HW RE: [RQ-RULES] D&D Magic in RQ [RQ-RULES] D&D Magic in RQ RE: [RQ-RULES] D&D Magic in RQ Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest [RQ-RULES] RE: D&D Magic in RQ - full rules (almost) RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:27:31 +0100 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: [RQ-RULES] HW I have posted Mamoru Kurihara the Charles Domino 4-part (p)review of HW from the Glorantha Digest. Mail me for a copy, if 3 people ask then I'll post it here. If you are really interested in HW, though, join the Glorantha list (details on glornatha.com). philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com http://members.tripod.com/~PhilHibbs/ You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - William Blake *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:45:50 +0100 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] D&D Magic in RQ >I would like to focus on D&D magic specificly since it is the one I >use most and would like to hear peoples opinions on the topic. This is a subject that I have casually thought about for a long time, but never done anything about. Lets start by working out a list of requirements that the magic system would require. It needs to simulate the D&D system closely enough to be recognisable as the same game world, so what does that mean? Here's my suggestion: 1. Wizards need a period of special training before they can even think about casting spells 2. The more creatures he kills, the more spells he can cast in a day 2a. That was me being sarcastic, what I mean is: the better he gets at magic, the more spells he can memorise and the more powerful certain spells get 3. A certain amount of training may be necessary in order to benefit from practice 4. Spells can be enormously powerful, without necessarily being tiring 5. Wizards may specialise in one of a number of 'schools' of magic (I don't know 2nd Ed that well though) 6. All spells can be stored in scrolls, and many effects that are not commonly available as spells can be enchanted into items 7. Most spells require material components, hand-jiving and funny incantations 8. They are practically guaranteed to work every time 9. Nearly anything is possible There are probably a few more, but that's a good start. Any suggestions for mechanics to simulate any of these features? Of course, if only half of the above were reasonably simulated then the system could still count as a success. philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com http://members.tripod.com/~PhilHibbs/ You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - William Blake *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:59:27 PDT From: "Leon Kirshtein" Subject: [RQ-RULES] D&D Magic in RQ All the recent talk of new systems got me thinking back to what I have been playing around with in the past several years. Let me explain: I have played several kinds of HeroQuests; those which are performed entirely in Glorantha, on the mundane plane; those which take place on the Hero/Spirit/Hell plane; and those which allow players to cross over into over worlds; or a combination of any and all of these. Depending on the world the players enter I have been using a number of magic systems for the NPC's inorder to vary the flavor and add a sense of uncertainty to the feel of the game. Ofcourse certain magic systems, such as from Young Kingdoms, converts very nicely and is easy to incorporate into the game. Others like D&D and Role Master are not so simple. Most of the time it does not matter since I can twick the results and have to explain how it is done to the players. The problem, or the challenge, is to make it workable and not over balancing while letting the players some type of access to some of this magic by ways of spell scrolls for the example or even possibly letting them learn some if by studing under the right teacher. I would like to focus on D&D magic specificly since it is the one I use most and would like to hear peoples opinions on the topic. Leon Kirshtein ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:20:05 PDT From: "Leon Kirshtein" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] D&D Magic in RQ This is a good definition of criteria, so let me address them as how I see it. >1. Wizards need a period of special training before they can even think >about casting spells. A teacher is a must at least initialy. Reasearch is possible afterwards. >2. The more creatures he kills, the more spells he can cast in a day >2a. That was me being sarcastic, what I mean is: the better he gets at >magic, the more spells he can memorise and the more powerful certain spells >get Totally scrap the experiance point system. >3. A certain amount of training may be necessary in order to benefit from >practice I invision level gain through a combination of time+power+money at a ratio of 1 week + 1 POW + 1,000L per level cummilitive >4. Spells can be enormously powerful, without necessarily being tiring. Require expendeture of 1mp per level of the spell >5. Wizards may specialise in one of a number of 'schools' of magic (I don't >know 2nd Ed that well though) No problems here >6. All spells can be stored in scrolls, and many effects that are not >commonly available as spells can be enchanted into items. This is special section which I am not yet ready to address. >7. Most spells require material components, hand-jiving and funny >incantations Not what different from RQ. Convert segment to SR, rounds to rounds, and turns minutes. >8. They are practically guaranteed to work every time. Make then roll memorization roll then casting. Make this as a skill under Knowledge with a base of Intx3. >9. Nearly anything is possible Well this is the attraction in the first place. Leon Kirshtein ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:01:59 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest stancliff@commnections.com wrote interesting post: > But what does Hero-Quest mean to you in terms of skill levels? > Priests can hero-quest, and they rarely have combat skills over 100%, so > clearly hero-questing is possible in the 75 - 200% range! This is an > issue of scale more than anything else. You could have a perfectly > believable "Battle of the Gods" with no one having a base skill over > 500%, as long as the human's base is appropriately less than 300%. > Everyone throws their spells, the combat characters (and gods) all > increase their abilities proportionally and balance is maintained. I'm trying to do HeroQuesting IMG from a heroic wargaming perspective. This means that one man can fight an army. The way I've worked my rules out, this pushes the upper end of the scale into four-figuresLand. This isn't completely playtested, so I could be wrong about my own system, though ... Don't think I am ... Maybe I shouldn't discuss it here though, 'cos this is my own scope in my own game. Also, my system isn't exemplary for it's elegance, you will have noticed ... I like it for it's potential in simulationist RPG. > At these lower relative levels, superior player action can have a > real effect without requiring special rules for experience gains, > training, or interpreting mythic actions. A priest could believably > kill a dragon (KoS) and become a Hero in the process, and Yanafel could > even get lucky and injure Humakt. There are many different kinds of Heroes. Some, like the iron diamond dwarfs, Greater Hydra, Mother of Monsters, Crimson Bat, Gonn Orta etc... live in four-figureLand (in RQ terms). > The SuperCrit is a 1/100 amount like your heroic success, but that > doesn't automatically mean that something Should have a skill over 1000% > just because you can mathematically invert the ratio! Well, I like rules you can stretch to their limits without breaking. Even using maths ... > RU>> It would be more correct to say that 8th - 10th levels are about the > RU>> same as Mastery or Rune Level, that is 90% - 120%! > RU>Disagree. See description of Hero Wars system for convenient support of my > > 8th - 10th level is a competent and respected expert in his field who > has taken several years to reach that level of proficiency. That very > accurately describes a Priest or Rune Lord. They play with about the > same feel of competency also. Again a problem of scope, except that something else which prevents AD&D/RQ parallels is that Glorantha is a V. magically rich world, far more than AD&D worlds. I would see RQ characters as having far more magical power than AD&D characters, where they would otherwise have a theoretical equivalence of level. > Have you given up running combat? Only rarely enjoy it, but no of course ... Playing 36th level AD&D, where you've got a priestess character, each round taking about four hours of play, and your statement of intent is "I cast Heal" 'cos someone in the party *is* gonna need it at the end of the round, and having about nine Heal spells in memory and a dozen on scrolls, really takes the enjoyment out of protracted and detailed combat ... The guys with the fighter characters didn't mind it, though ... > Do you just abstract the results? RPG combat is abstract anyway ... > Combat is easily half the game and this stuff is normal for combat. Yeah, too much. I'm trying to keep the feel of RQ combat without having it eat up the rest of the game's mechanics.It's an uphill struggle, with no support from the game companies ... > From the experience of my campaign, 15 year old characters will be on > the break point between Peasant and Militia levels. After a year of > regular play, they will be in the Soldier area. In another year they > will be making Warrior level. This is the point at which players start > to push for Acolyte status. In the third year you get several Leader > types and the Rune Levels start to appear. We are in the fourth year > and no one has enough masteries yet to make Rune Lord. nineteen year olds, right? I feel like resting my case at this point. > I admit that my view of expected competence in the table is heavily > biased by the officially published material. Lunar soldiers riding in > the Rubble only have 40 - 70% weapons ("Pavis" & "Big Rubble"). Sun > County Hoplites are listed in the 50 - 70% range ("Sun County"). I am > willing to argue that these numbers are unrealistically low and are > actually deflated from where they should be for the sake of providing > encounters that new players can defeat if necessary, but some of these > fighters are also described as 'elite'. > It is clear to me that if a person does a job regularly and well for > 10 years, then they will probably have mastered most of the tasks for > their job. On the other hand, the masters are promoted for their > abilities and become managers and trainers of others. The skill ranges given in most RQ sources are unrealistically low. That is, unrealistically low for a world like Glorantha. Just fine in a more RW-like place of course. These skill ranges work *just fine* of course in CoC !!! > A great-grandson (?) of Sartar (KoS) became a Rune Lord of Humakt at > the age of 9 or 10 (very directed training from infancy). He formed the > household of Death and took 'several' powerful gifts and geases. Two > years later he and the Red Emporer kill each other in single combat. > The emperor is supposed to be a hero, but was the kid? Or was he just a > good Rune Lord with a few hero-questing abilities? Was he above his > level, or are heros VERY good Rune Lords with some special abilities? RQ experience rules don't work for hero-level play ... > This is an issue of scope and expectations. Harrek wasn't a hero > before he killed his god and defeated it in spirit combat and possibly > wasn't one until several years later, and Argrath was just a bar singer > in 1610 (roughly) who became a sword trainer around 1614. Yet only 6 - > 8 years later they are both respected leaders of large groups (Wolf > Pirates & Brotherhood of the White Bull) when they meet after the cradle > adventure. Notice that the fight isn't described in the same grand > terms as their later fight on the Isle of Wonder in Holy Country. It is > my opinion that Argrath was a Rune Lord and Acolyte who was HeroQuesting > regularly at the time he met Harrek (who had probably just become a > Hero). This doesn't help us much re: describing him in RQ terms ...otherwise, you're right ... > Somewhere in that time they did cross the line to Hero and I doubt it > made a sudden and dramatic change to their abilities. I think that it > is more logical to not inflate the skill levels of heroic characters to > high values just to make them "Heros". This is the main reason I won't > use any of the HeroQuest rules that deal with large skill divisors. The > material that is not number based is flexible enough for any system > scale. Yeah, well I put the skill multipliers/divisors directly into the stats in my HQ scenarios, 'cos let's face it: who wants to deal with thart stuff during play? My players never know what they are, and I like it that way ...Multipliers/divisors are never applied to PCs, only NPCs. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:19:24 +0100 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: [RQ-RULES] RE: D&D Magic in RQ - full rules (almost) >Totally scrap the experiance point system. What do you mean, scrap it? There never was an experience point system in RQ! Surely you mean "Don't try to simulate it", and I agree, but there has to be some form of ability progression mechanism. How about having a single skill "Wizardry", base chance 0, which advances as a normal RQ skill. Wizardry (0%) Magic The apprentice wizard's Magic bonus can only at most double his ability in this skill. Learning this skill to 1% takes 50 hours, then 50xcurrent skill (excluding modifier) per 1% increase thereafter, so learning to 10% (the minimum for casting magic) takes at least 450 hours of training, ie. 45 weeks of solid study. This is normally done over the course of three years, with the apprentice gaining two years of normal experience over this time. Once the skill reaches 10%, the apprentice can cast spells on his own, and learning dramatically accelerates. Learning the skill over 10% requires one experience tick, followed by one normal training session (1 hour per current %), for the gain of 1d6 points in the skill. Pure training can be done, but only gives 1d6-3. Wizardry skill is used to determine what, and how many, spells a wizard may memorise. To be able to cast each level of spell, this skill must be increased by 10%xLevel. How to calculate how many spells can be learned? Here are some ideas (basically, I came up with them in this order, trying to refine the results to look right). The number of spells of each level that can be learned is calculated by dividing the skill by the minimum percentage required to learn the level, to a maximum of INT. Assuming INT=18 Skill 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10% 1 30% 3 1 60% 6 2 1 100% 10 3 1 1 150% 15 5 2 1 1 210% 18 7 3 2 1 1 280% 18 9 4 2 1 1 1 360% 18 12 6 3 2 1 1 1 450% 18 15 7 4 3 2 1 1 1 This math needs some work I think. Maybe for spells above 1st, divide it by 10 less than the number required to learn the level: Skill 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10% 1 30% 2 1 60% 3 3 1 100% 10 5 2 1 150% 15 7 3 1 1 210% 18 10 4 2 1 1 280% 18 14 5 3 2 1 1 360% 18 18 7 4 2 1 1 1 450% 18 18 9 5 3 2 1 1 1 No, that's still too extreme at the top end. Is "divide by ( minimum for level - 10 * (level-1) )" too complex? Also, max spells memorised should be INT - highest learnable spell level Skill 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 /10 /20 /40 /70 /110 /160 /220 /290 /370 10% 1 20% 2 30% 3 1 40% 4 2 60% 6 3 1 100% 10 5 2 1 150% 12 7 3 2 1 210% 12 10 5 3 1 1 280% 11 11 7 4 2 1 1 360% 10 10 9 5 3 2 1 1 450% 9 9 9 6 4 2 2 1 1 580% 9 9 9 8 5 3 2 2 1 740% 9 9 9 9 6 4 3 2 2 That looks pretty good to me, but probably looks shit once translated into any other mail reader. View it monospaced, and concatenate broken lines, for perfection. As a wizard gets more powerful, he has to spend more of his time studying the more advanced arts, so his ability to remember low-level spells atrophies. >>3. A certain amount of training may be necessary in order to >>benefit from practice >I invision level gain through a combination of time+power+money at a >ratio of 1 week + 1 POW + 1,000L per level cummilitive I don't think a character should have "levels" of magical skill. >>4. Spells can be enormously powerful, without necessarily being tiring. >Require expendeture of 1mp per level of the spell So a 450% character with POW 17 that casts one 9th level spell, then one 8th level spell, falls unconscious? This is going a long way from D&D. How about this: Wizardry skill must be rolled each time a spell is cast: Critical Spell works, and is not lost from memory Special Spell works Normal Spell works, costs 1 MP Failure Spell works, costs 1 MP per level of spell Fumble Spell fails, costs 1 MP The difference between levels of success is deliberately small, as there is no equivalent in D&D at all, but in RQ, skills is skills and they can go wrong. The skill is ticked on a normal success or better, but requires first a tick, then one training session per increase, gaining 1d6-1. Note that if a starting Wizard with Wizardry at 15% fails his roll, he cannot gain a tick until he re-learns the spell, casts it again, and rolls 15 or less. It is quite possible for a starting wizard to fail to get a tick for several days. Remember that 96-99 is always at best a failure, and 00 is always a fumble. Just remembered this: 10. Some wizards can't learn some spells Roll INTx5 - 5% per level of spell to be able to know a spell, this roll may be retried once when Wizardry rises high enough to permit the wizard to learn two spells of the same level. A fumble means the spell can never be learned. Alternatively, just use the D&D Know Spell percentage for the INT. Wow, I didn't expect to get that much done, that's almost a complete system, and I don't even know D&D that well! Anyone got any ideas on how to do specialists? The spell descriptions will need some work as well. The D&D rules are available on CD-ROM, which contains the full text of the PHB in RTF format, which will make life easier. It's got a gorgeously animated CGI "adventure" flick as well, although the plot is a bit (!) weak. It's worth the 40 quid just for the stills of the dragon to use as wallpaper. philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com http://members.tripod.com/~PhilHibbs/ You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - William Blake *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #111 ************************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Avalon Hill Games. 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